Am I missing out? (R2R vs DS)

[leliamonfire]

Hello (I am new to this forum, FYI).

So about a month ago, I got the FIIO K11 R2R as a standalone desktop DAC. I previously used a Focusrite Solo 2nd gen as a DAC, as that is all I had (besides the audio jack on my laptop). I really enjoy the Focusrite interface and still use it for music every now and then, but I use the K11 90% of the time.

I purchased the K11 R2R under the pretense that an R2R DAC is somehow better than a delta sigma DAC. After reading some threads, watching a few videos, and ironically some information from my computer engineering classes, I am now a bit lost.

There is definitely a difference in how the K11 'sounds' vs. the Focusrite. Of course I cannot quantify my opinions, but the K11 sounds a bit warmer than the Solo. I also cannot comment on the clarity or sound quality from either since I honestly cannot hear a significant enough difference in detail.

I just wanted to ask if I am missing out on 'more' of something, like if I am missing out on something a nicer quality DS DAC can provide that the K11 R2R doesn't. This is somewhat of an introspective question since I enjoy listening with the K11 a lot. I have a CD player running into the DAC via coaxial that sounds great; I play lots of FLAC and a bit of DSD through USB. I have it outputting to a Luxman R-115 and some Energy XL-150 bookshelf speakers via RCA that sound fantastic. I listen through my Kiwi Ears Quintet IEMs that sound amazing.

I am asking because the JDS Labs Atom DAC 2 exists for less than the K11 R2R, and I could theoretically output that into my Luxman as a headphone amp. Or a similar setup with another DS DAC. I also understand that at this price point a lot of DACs will probably 'sound' the same, in that there probably won't be a differnce in sound quality between a $140 vs $160 DAC.

 

[Purité Audio]

There won’t be any difference between properly engineered dacs at any price point from Topping to the latest DCS, a poor R2R may add some audible distortion, which is ‘more’ but I wouldn’t want more of it.
Keith

 

[staticV3]

Hi @leliamonfire! Welcome to ASR.

I purchased the K11 R2R under the pretense that an R2R DAC is somehow better than a delta sigma DAC.

It is not.

I just wanted to ask if I am missing out on 'more' of something, like if I am missing out on something a nicer quality DS DAC can provide that the K11 R2R doesn't.

Well, what I can tell you is that, for less money than the K11 R2R, you can buy a DS DAC that will more faithfully reproduce the sound stored in your CDs and tracks.

If you enjoy the added "flavor" that your K11 R2R brings, and do note that it is one of very few ways in which a simple DAC can audibly affect the sound, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Just know that it's an effect box (albeit subtle). Not technically high fidelity.

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi, and welcome.
You seem to enjoy the sound you get now - that's a very good place to be. Enjoy your music!

As others have said, don't expect a DAC to change your sound (unless badly designed or broken). Probably avoid R2R for any future upgrade though.

For now, relax: you enjoy what you hear and you won't improve it (audibly, much) by changing DAC.

 

[Jeromeof]

I have both the K11 R2R and the original - the one 'advantage' I thought with the R2R version for those curious is in NOS mode you might get 'more' (i.e. more distortion) while in OS mode you are basically getting the DAC to get you similar audio performance ( though maybe technical not as good from SINAD ) to a DS DAC.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Did you determine that it sounds different with levels carefully matched to within .1 db? Did you determine this under controlled listening in which you don't know which is which until after you confirm they sound different while level matched? Otherwise, maybe they don't sound different.

 

[leliamonfire]

Hi @leliamonfire! Welcome to ASR.


It is not.


Well, what I can tell you is that, for less money than the K11 R2R, you can buy a DS DAC that will more faithfully reproduce the sound stored in your CDs and tracks.

If you enjoy the added "flavor" that your K11 R2R brings, and do note that it is one of very few ways in which a simple DAC can audibly affect the sound, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Just know that it's an effect box (albeit subtle). Not technically high fidelity.

Thank you for welcome

I do enjoy the added effect from the K11 R2R. It is a pleasant listening experience especially for an IEM like my Quintets that tend to lean a bit bright. Maybe I'll look into some other DACs but I'll try not to worry about it too much.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[leliamonfire]

I have both the K11 R2R and the original - the one 'advantage' I thought with the R2R version for those curious is in NOS mode you might get 'more' (i.e. more distortion) while in OS mode you are basically getting the DAC to get you similar audio performance ( though maybe technical not as good from SINAD ) to a DS DAC.

Thanks for the reply! I'll definitely try some longer listening sessions with OS mode on. I'll be honest though, I doubt I'll be able to hear a difference without quantitative or rigorous testing. Thanks for the tips!

 

[leliamonfire]

Did you determine that it sounds different with levels carefully matched to within .1 db? Did you determine this under controlled listening in which you don't know which is which until after you confirm they sound different while level matched? Otherwise, maybe they don't sound different.

I have not preformed any kind of quantitative or rigorous testing to determine any discrepancies between K11 R2R and Focusrite interface. Of course I understand that I wouldn't actually know if I hear a difference until I preform a blind test. Maybe there isn't an audible difference that I can hear, but an objective difference should exists between an R2R and DS, hence my question!

 

[oleg87]

R2R/sigma delta is an implementation detail, either can be sufficiently good at reproducing the intended signal that no audible differences should exist. The K11 isn't particularly linear from what I've seen but shouldn't be anything too significant. Non-oversampling mode will have a sound, since it does not attempt to properly reconstruct the analog signal. The main audible difference will be some treble rolloff, and perhaps some other artifacts.

 

[Blumlein 88]

R2R/sigma delta is an implementation detail, either can be sufficiently good at reproducing the intended signal that no audible differences should exist. The K11 isn't particularly linear from what I've seen but shouldn't be anything too significant. Non-oversampling mode will have a sound, since it does not attempt to properly reconstruct the analog signal. The main audible difference will be some treble rolloff, and perhaps some other artifacts.

Non oversampling might still have a filter. Instructions imply it does. If so it may work just fine. NOS doesn't mean no filter though the two often go together.

 

[voodooless]

The K11 isn't particularly linear from what I've seen but shouldn't be anything too significant.

Well, it’s not pretty:

Fiio K11 R2R DAC/HPAMP measurements

This is a simple measurement of Fiio K11 R2R DAC and headphone amplifie. Some setup, 200kohm input impedance, 48khz sample rate, 20khz bandwidth. Balance ouput Dynamic range, No weighting 50mV SNR, 32ohm load, No weighting Linearity, 1khz sine, elliptic filter low and high pass from...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Jeromeof]

Well, it’s not pretty:

Fiio K11 R2R DAC/HPAMP measurements

This is a simple measurement of Fiio K11 R2R DAC and headphone amplifie. Some setup, 200kohm input impedance, 48khz sample rate, 20khz bandwidth. Balance ouput Dynamic range, No weighting 50mV SNR, 32ohm load, No weighting Linearity, 1khz sine, elliptic filter low and high pass from...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Looks linear in OS mode as far as FR is concerned. I think Tube Amplifiers and R2R DACs (to a lesser extent) will always look bad in distortion measurements, but I think that is point. I know some people who would rather use a CRT display than an LCD as they feel it is easier on their eyes and that is how I feel about R2R amplifiers, it is a personal choice maybe based on some nostalgic idea of what people 'feel' is what they want.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

R2R amplifiers

Typo, twice?

 

[JIW]

Non oversampling might still have a filter. Instructions imply it does. If so it may work just fine. NOS doesn't mean no filter though the two often go together.

The product page claims it has a low pass filter after the conversion stage.

Their example for NOS output also does not show the stair-steps of a zero order hold but is still distorted. Frequency seems to be 1 kHz and sample rate 44.1 kHz since there are 9 peaks from 1.0 to 1.2 ms.

@swa2023 measured the frequency response at 48 kHz. The attenuation at 5 kHz, 10 kHz and 20 kHz of the NOS mode are consistent with a zero order hold - 20*log10(sinc(5/48)) = -0.1556, 20*log10(sinc(10/48)) = -0.6292 and 20*log10(sinc(20/48)) = -2.6399.

 

[voodooless]

Their example for NOS output also does not show the stair-steps of a zero order hold but is still distorted.

Funny how a star-step (like) waveform yields:

preserving authentic sound and allowing you to enjoy an organic and captivating musical experience.

I have also no idea how they always claim that NOS does not have the so-called "digital glare"? There is nothing more digital-looking than an NOS waveform

As for how they do this here: probably just upsample synchronously to a high rate by simply holding the sample value until the next real sample comes in, then letting the normal oversampling and analog filters handle the rest. Given that the NOS waveform looks asymmetrically, I would guess that oversampling uses a minimum-phase filter.

 

[Blumlein 88]

There is no good digital like distorted digital??

The idea of the purist organic sound of NOS stair step digital is a pure retcon fantasy.

 

[JSmith]

I am missing out on something a nicer quality DS DAC can provide

Stop worrying about DAC's... worry about the room, your speakers and how to use EQ. Watch you're not developing audiophile nervosa.


JSmith

 

[leliamonfire]

Stop worrying about DAC's... worry about the room, your speakers and how to use EQ. Watch you're not developing audiophile nervosa.


JSmith

I'll definitely try not to worry about it. But it'll definitely stick in the back of my mind. The whole value for money proposition at this price point is very prevalent in my head and I will always wonder if I got the best for what I paid for. Are there other DACs at and around $160 that I should consider since I am still in the return window for my K11 R2R?

 

[JSmith]

Are there other DACs at and around $160 that I should consider since I am still in the return window for my K11 R2R?

A few examples, but search the review index for all DAC's and you can search by price, recommended, SINAD etc.

This one has double optical & coax inputs, RCA & XLR plus HP amp;

SMSL RAW-MDA 1 DAC & Headphone Amp Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the SMSL RAW-MDA 1 stereo DAC and headphone amplifier. It was sent to me by SMSL and it is a collaboration with Shenzehenaudio (available elsewhere as well) and is on sale for $246. The first thing I noticed was the much more polished display. It is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This one has HDMI ARC, plus HP amp;

SMSL DL100 DAC and Headphone Amp Review

This is a review, listening tests and detailed measurements of the SMSL DL100 balanced stereo DAC and headphone amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $179. The DL100 is a fair departure from standard SMSL offering in that it uses a stamped steel enclosure instead of machined...

www.audiosciencereview.com

JSmith