How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

[Luchof26]

So what's the point of looking for interfaces or preamps with better converter chips and better components in general to improve the audio provided by Smartphones and computers...for example?
If a simple look at a frequency curve was enough we would have much less problems choosing audio devices and all brands would manufacture in the same way.
Maybe you mean that the E2x2 topping has a high-end flat sound?

Another thing is that you are of the opinion that at the same volume everything sounds practically the same.

Excuse my skepticism.

I agree with you. I had lots of different interfaces from RME, Ferrofish, Topping, Presonus and TC Electronic. I work for a production company and esencially I'm making music everyday in significant quantities. The music I make is influenced by the DAC I'm using because the decisions I make are influenced by the DAC's. All this DAC's have flat frequencies response in the tests and all that. Still I do hear some differences. Other people might disagree and that is fine. Some people listen to music, some people make music and some people play music through their DAC's. All of the above are different experiences that have different requierements.

Coming back to the topic the Topping E2X2 is a great unit. Its a good AD/DA, with a good headphone amp. If you cannot make good music with it its user error. Great times to have a device that performs this well for such a reasonable amount of money.

 

[staticV3]

So what's the point of looking for interfaces or preamps with better converter chips and better components in general to improve the audio provided by Smartphones and computers...for example?

Differential output, higher output voltage, better I/O, remote control, better support for various audio formats.

 

[staticV3]

I agree with you. I had lots of different interfaces from RME, Ferrofish, Topping, Presonus and TC Electronic. I work for a production company and esencially I'm making music everyday in significant quantities. The music I make is influenced by the DAC I'm using because the decisions I make are influenced by the DAC's. All this DAC's have flat frequencies response in the tests and all that. Still I do hear some differences. Other people might disagree and that is fine. Some people listen to music, some people make music and some people play music through their DAC's. All of the above are different experiences that have different requierements.

Great. Choose any of your DACs and record an audio snippet from it using various interfaces.

Load the clips into Pkane Deltawave, let it do its thing, then use the built-in ABX comparator to see if you can still distinguish between converters, even if levels are matched and you don't know which one is playing.

Repeat with multiple DACs into one interface if desired.

It's quite the transformative experience that may well revolutionize your professional workflow

 

[AnalogSteph]

Therefore, I am trying to find an interface that will perform well within these prices without having to sacrifice the need for recording inputs in the future.

If nothing else, they would be handy if you ever found the need to use a measurement microphone to calibrate a speaker setup.

Hi-fi DACs for headphones will probably color the audio.

Not usually, no. You can buy some tube or NOS / R-2R silliness if you insist, but there are plenty of good no-nonsense ones out there that measure well and sound just fine. Even dongle DACs.

What devices, model and brand are you referring to with E50/L50?

These are a Topping DAC and headphone amp.

So what's the point of looking for interfaces or preamps with better converter chips and better components in general to improve the audio provided by Smartphones and computers...for example?

Beyond a certain point it's more about covering eventualities.

That fancier DAC will be good enough for preamp use. A fancier headphone amp might have lower noise for IEMs, higher output for voltage-hungry cans and more power for planars all at the same time.

Plus there's "because I can afford it". These days you can buy fairly inexpensive DACs and headphone amps that basically beat anything on the market 20 years ago.

If you just need a basic line-level source with unbalanced output and relatively modest signal level around 1 Vrms, even a standard onboard Realtek codec sounds perfectly fine (note: there may be some misimprovements that are being turned on for headphone use and would need to be deactivated manually). It won't be winning any awards for cutting-edge measured performance in terms of THD or THD+N by any stretch, but it'll be good enough for what one typically needs to run into a headphone amp or integrated amp. The best models like ALC1220 / ALC4080 even make it to preamp-grade dynamic range with 2 Vrms output.

As a rule of thumb, you typically need a whole lot less performance than you want.

If a simple look at a frequency curve was enough we would have much less problems choosing audio devices and all brands would manufacture in the same way.

Well, it does take a few more parameters than that in addition, and you can look at those in @Julian Krause's review. In any case, the E2x2 is fine. No, it doesn't have nearly as much output power as a L30 II / L50, so if you're semi-deaf and have a Hifiman HE-6 or vintage 600 ohm AKGs to drive, it may not be ideal. It also still needs an analog volume control with all is potential concerns regarding channel balance since the DAC maxes out at a dynamic range of 115 dB(A) and that's not quite preamp-grade yet.

 

[Vicent]

That's the conclusion many here at ASR have come to, myself included. Buy audio electronics with the features you want, that fit in your budget, that measure well enough to be transparent, that you enjoy using, and which are hopefully reliable with good after sales support. I have never been able to hear the difference between two well measuring converters with properly matched volumes. On the other hand It's very easy to hear a difference when levels aren't properly matched and the listening is sighted.

Well, I understand your position, although I think there are some. I don't know if transparency, as I understand it, can be measured. Any low-priced electronic capacitor of such and such value will measure the same as a more expensive one of the same value, however, it is more than likely that they will not sound the same.

This is the eternal problem of HI-FI and HI-END.
But I understand what you say and I thank you for your recommendations.

 

[Vicent]

Before I continue, I apologize because I'm getting confused with the posts and translations.
I hope that little by little I will become familiar with this website.

 

[staticV3]

I don't know if transparency, as I understand it, can be measured.

It sure can.

I don't think that your capacitor example is applicable here as when measuring audio equipment, we're actually analyzing the sound that comes out of these devices, not some parameter separate from audio playback.

We do this with static tones like sine waves, highly complex signals like multitones, and with actual music using Null tests.

There is no possible way in which a device could ace a thorough set of measurements, but fail at music playback, or vice versa.

The magic attributes that you wish existed in HiFi to preserve a certain level of mystique and romance, simply do not exist.

If you think that you've perceived such attributes yourself, then it was most likely your mind playing tricks on you, which would've been prevented using appropriate controls.

 

[Luchof26]

Great. Choose any of your DACs and record an audio snippet from it using various interfaces.

Load the clips into Pkane Deltawave, let it do its thing, then use the built-in ABX comparator to see if you can still distinguish between converters, even if levels are matched and you don't know which one is playing.

Repeat with multiple DACs into one interface if desired.

It's quite the transformative experience that may well revolutionize your professional workflow

Yes, we are all professional wasters of money.

 

[staticV3]

Yes, we are all professional wasters of money.

Or do none of the things suggested above and stay in wonderland

 

[Vicent]

If nothing else, they would be handy if you ever found the need to use a measurement microphone to calibrate a speaker setup.

Not usually, no. You can buy some tube or NOS / R-2R silliness if you insist, but there are plenty of good no-nonsense ones out there that measure well and sound just fine. Even dongle DACs.

These are a Topping DAC and headphone amp.


Beyond a certain point it's more about covering eventualities.

That fancier DAC will be good enough for preamp use. A fancier headphone amp might have lower noise for IEMs, higher output for voltage-hungry cans and more power for planars all at the same time.

Plus there's "because I can afford it". These days you can buy fairly inexpensive DACs and headphone amps that basically beat anything on the market 20 years ago.

If you just need a basic line-level source with unbalanced output and relatively modest signal level around 1 Vrms, even a standard onboard Realtek codec sounds perfectly fine (note: there may be some misimprovements that are being turned on for headphone use and would need to be deactivated manually). It won't be winning any awards for cutting-edge measured performance in terms of THD or THD+N by any stretch, but it'll be good enough for what one typically needs to run into a headphone amp or integrated amp. The best models like ALC1220 / ALC4080 even make it to preamp-grade dynamic range with 2 Vrms output.

As a rule of thumb, you typically need a whole lot less performance than you want.


Well, it does take a few more parameters than that in addition, and you can look at those in @Julian Krause's review. In any case, the E2x2 is fine. No, it doesn't have nearly as much output power as a L30 II / L50, so if you're semi-deaf and have a Hifiman HE-6 or vintage 600 ohm AKGs to drive, it may not be ideal. It also still needs an analog volume control with all is potential concerns regarding channel balance since the DAC maxes out at a dynamic range of 115 dB(A) and that's not quite preamp-grade yet.

Wow!!!...thanks a lot for such an extensive answer.
I hadn't thought that the inputs could be used to calibrate speakers, that's good.
I guess because of the translation, I didn't understand the last paragraph about the analog volume control, maybe you're referring to the non-linear increase or decrease of the volume? I don't remember that the Toping's volume control is analog, or maybe you didn't mean that.

 

[Vicent]

If nothing else, they would be handy if you ever found the need to use a measurement microphone to calibrate a speaker setup.

Not usually, no. You can buy some tube or NOS / R-2R silliness if you insist, but there are plenty of good no-nonsense ones out there that measure well and sound just fine. Even dongle DACs.

These are a Topping DAC and headphone amp.


Beyond a certain point it's more about covering eventualities.

That fancier DAC will be good enough for preamp use. A fancier headphone amp might have lower noise for IEMs, higher output for voltage-hungry cans and more power for planars all at the same time.

Plus there's "because I can afford it". These days you can buy fairly inexpensive DACs and headphone amps that basically beat anything on the market 20 years ago.

If you just need a basic line-level source with unbalanced output and relatively modest signal level around 1 Vrms, even a standard onboard Realtek codec sounds perfectly fine (note: there may be some misimprovements that are being turned on for headphone use and would need to be deactivated manually). It won't be winning any awards for cutting-edge measured performance in terms of THD or THD+N by any stretch, but it'll be good enough for what one typically needs to run into a headphone amp or integrated amp. The best models like ALC1220 / ALC4080 even make it to preamp-grade dynamic range with 2 Vrms output.

As a rule of thumb, you typically need a whole lot less performance than you want.


Well, it does take a few more parameters than that in addition, and you can look at those in @Julian Krause's review. In any case, the E2x2 is fine. No, it doesn't have nearly as much output power as a L30 II / L50, so if you're semi-deaf and have a Hifiman HE-6 or vintage 600 ohm AKGs to drive, it may not be ideal. It also still needs an analog volume control with all is potential concerns regarding channel balance since the DAC maxes out at a dynamic range of 115 dB(A) and that's not quite preamp-grade yet.

My best headphones are the Sennheiser Hd 560 S 120 Ohms.

 

[AnalogSteph]

There is no possible way in which a device could ace a thorough set of measurements, but fail at music playback, or vice versa.

Emphasis on thorough.

I guess because of the translation, I didn't understand the last paragraph about the analog volume control, maybe you're referring to the non-linear increase or decrease of the volume? I don't remember that the Toping's volume control is analog, or maybe you didn't mean that.

I am pretty sure that there's a traditional potentiometer behind the headphone volume dial that's attenuating the analog signal.

These days with DACs routinely reaching 125+ dB of dynamic range, it is entirely feasible to control the output volume in the digital domain and still have perfectly acceptable maximum output and noise levels.

My best headphones are the Sennheiser Hd 560 S 120 Ohms.

An E2x2 should drive these with ease, they need somewhat low output impedance (say 10 ohms max) but otherwise are not too demanding.

BTW, you can edit your posts for quite a while, no need to post again if you have something to add.

 

[Vicent]

It sure can.

I don't think that your capacitor example is applicable here as when measuring audio equipment, we're actually analyzing the sound that comes out of these devices, not some parameter separate from audio playback.

We do this with static tones like sine waves, highly complex signals like multitones, and with actual music using Null tests.

There is no possible way in which a device could ace a thorough set of measurements, but fail at music playback, or vice versa.

The magic attributes that you wish existed in HiFi to preserve a certain level of mystique and romance, simply do not exist.

If you think that you've perceived such attributes yourself, then it was most likely your mind playing tricks on you, which would've been prevented using appropriate controls.

That's fine thanks.

 

[Vicent]

I am pretty sure that there's a traditional potentiometer behind the headphone volume dial that's attenuating the analog signal.

These days with DACs routinely reaching 125+ dB of dynamic range, it is entirely feasible to control the output volume in the digital domain and still have perfectly acceptable maximum output and noise levels.

OK thanks.

 

[Vicent]

Emphasis on thorough.


I am pretty sure that there's a traditional potentiometer behind the headphone volume dial that's attenuating the analog signal.

These days with DACs routinely reaching 125+ dB of dynamic range, it is entirely feasible to control the output volume in the digital domain and still have perfectly acceptable maximum output and noise levels.


An E2x2 should drive these with ease, they need somewhat low output impedance (say 10 ohms max) but otherwise are not too demanding.

BTW, you can edit your posts for quite a while, no need to post again if you have something to add.

OK, thanks a lot.
But it often happens that after a first reading, one does not read it a second time and the edition is left hanging, as may be happening now.

 

[olds1959special]

I have gotten the chance to listen to one of my favorite albums on the Fiio K11 R2R as a music DAC in my system. I'm on the first song and it's pretty great to hear the improvements / changes to the sound over my SMSL DO100 Pro, particularly in the areas of weight, texture, and listenability. One thing is for sure, the Fiio puts out a less hot signal. I can turn it up all the way to 99 and turn up the pre-amp to a full 9 o'clock on the volume. Using my DO100 Pro like this would be WAY too loud. So it's a better match for my system. I wish it had a remote control though.

 

[Luchof26]

Well, I understand your position, although I think there are some. I don't know if transparency, as I understand it, can be measured. Any low-priced electronic capacitor of such and such value will measure the same as a more expensive one of the same value, however, it is more than likely that they will not sound the same.

This is the eternal problem of HI-FI and HI-END.
But I understand what you say and I thank you for your recommendations.

The eternal problem with HI-FI and HI-END . Well put, just make your own mind about what you believe and ignore evangelist/echo chambers. Maybe the only thing we agree on is that the Topping is a good device that will allow you to hear your music transparently without coloration and record your music in the same way. If you have a little more budget the Presonus Quantum HD2 is also a very recommended device. It has a little more THD than the Topping but I prefer mixing with the Presonus. Also has additional expansion with ADAT, great instruments DI's, reamping, SPDIF and headphone amp. Both great devices at very good prices.

 

[Vicent]

The eternal problem with HI-FI and HI-END . Well put, just make your own mind about what you believe and ignore evangelist/echo chambers. Maybe the only thing we agree on is that the Topping is a good device that will allow you to hear your music transparently without coloration and record your music in the same way. If you have a little more budget the Presonus Quantum HD2 is also a very recommended device. It has a little more THD than the Topping but I prefer mixing with the Presonus. Also has additional expansion with ADAT, great instruments DI's, reamping, SPDIF and headphone amp. Both great devices at very good prices.

Thank you very much.
I will look at the model you recommend.

I just saw the price of the Presonus and it's a lot of money for a beginner hobbyist like me, but thank you again.

 

[BDWoody]

More moved in.

 

[BDWoody]

make your own mind about what you believe and ignore evangelist/echo chambers.

You'd be better off ignoring all the unsupported anecdotal claims and instead learning how to read and understand all those scary charts and graphs and measurements.

That's going to give you immunity to all the nonsense out there.