How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

[Luchof26]

You'd be better off ignoring all the unsupported anecdotal claims and instead learning how to read and understand all those scary charts and graphs and measurements.

That's going to give you immunity to all the nonsense out there.

I will, Thanks!

 

[007Shorty]

I think it's a good time to mention the “Matrix Audio Test” again.

Here is the summary from NwAvGuy:

"BELIEVING = BIAS: If the guy who thinks I’m an idiot for comparing the Mini3 to the E5 were to sit down and listen to both side-by-side which do you think he’d say sounds better? There’s almost zero chance he’d choose the E5. This same bias is widespread in audio. You have a $300 DAC, you arrange to listen to a $3000 DAC, and even if they sound exactly the same, your brain and hearing are “wired” to think the $3000 DAC sounds better. So how do we get around this problem?

BED SHEETS & TESTING: As you probably guessed, blind testing is the “dirty secret” I referred to at the start of the article. Matrix Audio conducted a relatively simple and eye opening example. The photo at the right shows the test set up with two different systems under a bed sheet sharing a pair of high-end speakers. Volunteers stood behind the speakers and swapped the high-end cables. There were no switch boxes involved. The result, if you haven’t seen it elsewhere, is the listeners couldn’t tell a high-end $12,000 stack of gear from a $700 (I’d say closer to $400) set up with a pro-sound power amp, bargain basement CD player, and a cheap obscenely long RCA cable connecting the two. You can read all about it here:

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

(photo: Matrix Audio)"

 

[Vicent]

I have read the Matrix tests on occasion.
I have a basic audio system and I have listened to some other higher level equipment and there are notable differences.
Furthermore, my speaker boxes are homemade, assembled by me and modified and carried out tests with different configurations for both speaker positioning, enclosure design and different filters and configurations of these, all based on trial and error, and I have been able to prove over time (several years) and listening to different configurations that there is a lot of difference between one and another, both when the transducers are the same and what changes is the filter configuration and vice versa and both in coloration and transparency, sound stage and general listening quality, and not just preferences.
And now I am going to say "the phrase" "According to my perception".

I think this is summed up in a phrase we say in Spain.
" neither bald nor three wigs "
That is to say that situations for everything but that quality is noted in all circumstances "almost always".

 

[WOLFAGRAM]

Hello my Friend.

I'm on the first song and it's pretty great to hear the improvements / changes to the sound over my SMSL DO100 Pro, particularly in the areas of weight, texture, and listenability. One thing is for sure, the Fiio puts out a less hot signal.

I have a very cheap basic FiiO BR13 bluetooth receiver/DAC. For the price it sounds acceptable. In any case it sounds much better than a no-name BT receiver it replaced. However, the signal on the line out is somewhat quiet. Compared to line out my DVD/SACD player, it is 12 o'clock vs. 9 o'clock on the preamp volume. It is also quieter than my old no-name BT receiver, although the difference is somewhat smaller. I guess it is a common characteristic of FiiO products.


Cheers.

 

[Luchof26]

I have read the Matrix tests on occasion.
I have a basic audio system and I have listened to some other higher level equipment and there are notable differences.
Furthermore, my speaker boxes are homemade, assembled by me and modified and carried out tests with different configurations for both speaker positioning, enclosure design and different filters and configurations of these, all based on trial and error, and I have been able to prove over time (several years) and listening to different configurations that there is a lot of difference between one and another, both when the transducers are the same and what changes is the filter configuration and vice versa and both in coloration and transparency, sound stage and general listening quality, and not just preferences.
And now I am going to say "the phrase" "According to my perception".

I think this is summed up in a phrase we say in Spain.
" neither bald nor three wigs "
That is to say that situations for everything but that quality is noted in all circumstances "almost always".

I don't think is worth debating about this topic here. I actually enjoy this forum and the reviews it does. I just commented on your post because I really like Topping gear. Now they even moved the topic here . I'll avoid commenting further in this forum, since I have better things to do with my life. Saludos, Vicente!

 

[BDWoody]

Furthermore, my speaker boxes are homemade,

Speakers and transducers in general are in a very different category than solid state electronics.

Plenty to sound different when you are dealing with little motors. In decent electronics, not so much. Hard to believe, until you actually do some controlled testing where you can't peek or get clues (blind, levels matched, etc). If you haven't done that before, give it a try before you dismiss the idea.

 

[DSJR]

I feel that all newcomers to an objective way of listening after many years of subjectivism ruling their choices, just need to try to understand that our listening perceptions are, in actual fact, a combination of ALL of our senses, not just our hearing alone. The look, feel, price (yes, that too) and even the listening venue and listening-company, can play a huge part in opinions of audiophiles who 'don't know.' Take all those influences away and things become more real as to what a given item is doing. I have anecdotes, some of which I've shared in the past, but until out-and-out subjectivists experience these things for themselves, they'll continue to think we're crackpots who 'listen' to sinad figures and not a note of music, speech or song on our sound rigs...

 

[Vicent]

Ok.
This is also my last post in this thread.
I understand that speakers are in a different category but not that much, because the frequency filters are electronic and by varying them they modify the sound reproduced by the transducers.

I assure you that a KIT amplifier made with modest components, just by the fact of being assembled and soldered by me, will sound worse than one assembled and soldered in an amplifier factory, even if it were the same one.

I also have anecdotes but they are not going to end with either school of thought.

In any case, it has been a pleasure to chat politely in this thread.

 

[Vicent]

I don't think is worth debating about this topic here. I actually enjoy this forum and the reviews it does. I just commented on your post because I really like Topping gear. Now they even moved the topic here . I'll avoid commenting further in this forum, since I have better things to do with my life. Saludos, Vicente!

Very grateful.
Regards.

 

[Jim Taylor]

De acuerdo.
Éste también es mi último post en este hilo.
Entiendo que los altavoces están en una categoría diferente pero no tanto, porque los filtros de frecuencia son electrónicos y al variarlos modifican el sonido que reproducen los transductores.

Os aseguro que un amplificador KIT hecho con componentes modestos, solo por el hecho de estar montado y soldado por mí, sonará peor que uno montado y soldado en una fábrica de amplificadores, aunque fuera el mismo.

También tengo anécdotas pero no van a acabar con ninguna de las dos escuelas de pensamiento.

En cualquier caso, ha sido un placer charlar educadamente en este hilo.

I suspect that @Vicent forgot to use his translation app. For those who want to know what he posted, here is a translation:

Okay.
This is also my last post in this thread.
I understand that speakers are in a different category but not that much, because the frequency filters are electronic and by varying them they modify the sound reproduced by the transducers.

I assure you that a KIT amp made with modest components, just for the fact of being assembled and soldered by me, will sound worse than one assembled and soldered in an amp factory, even if it was the same.

I also have anecdotes but they are not going to kill either school of thought.

In any case, it's been a pleasure to chat politely in this thread.


Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

 

[Vicent]

I suspect that @Vicent forgot to use his translation app. For those who want to know what he posted, here is a translation:

Okay.
This is also my last post in this thread.
I understand that speakers are in a different category but not that much, because the frequency filters are electronic and by varying them they modify the sound reproduced by the transducers.

I assure you that a KIT amp made with modest components, just for the fact of being assembled and soldered by me, will sound worse than one assembled and soldered in an amp factory, even if it was the same.

I also have anecdotes but they are not going to kill either school of thought.

In any case, it's been a pleasure to chat politely in this thread.


Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

Again...God...when will I learn?
It's a problem with the page translator, which automatically translates my post into Spanish at the time of pasting and I don't realize it.

Thank you very much.

 

[sq225917]

@SIY, midwit, I like that... very apt. I'd prefer a description, " knows a lot of technical stuff but not their arse from their elbow".

 

[SIY]

" knows a lot of technical stuff but not their arse from their elbow".

I would have some disagreement about the first part. Some, yes, a lot, no. Mid.

 

[sonitus mirus]

It’s just more of the same, overconfident audio enthusiasts clinging to anecdotal beliefs about DACs and amps, confusing personal bias with audibility.

 

[DSJR]

Ok.
This is also my last post in this thread.

I assure you that a KIT amplifier made with modest components, just by the fact of being assembled and soldered by me, will sound worse than one assembled and soldered in an amplifier factory, even if it were the same one.

In any case, it has been a pleasure to chat politely in this thread.

No need to go at all! Some do-it-yourself amp kits can be spectacularly well made with careful wiring looms, good heatsinking and general internal layout, sometimes better than some cost-conscious mass-produced products. Less well compromised payouts may well introduce measured differences, but whether you'd actually 'HEAR' the difference, I don't know - human hearing is dire compared to the animal world, yet some 'golden ears' think they're fantastic at hearing differences. Perceiving multi-sensory differences, yes, but I repeat it's not just on hearing alone.

It's well worth hanging around, reading a few threads and posts by the experienced technical experts here. As you 'mop up' the info presented, I'm sure you'll begin to find yourself feeling the music better and not worry or fret about the playback system apart from the most important speaker-room interface, which can kill even the best sorted systems as well as on the other hand, make less than ideal setups sing so well.

 

[krabapple]

I have read the Matrix tests on occasion.
I have a basic audio system and I have listened to some other higher level equipment and there are notable differences.

OK, but if you already read about what blind tests are for, you know that the usual 'listening' can produce 'notable differences' that aren't real.

Start from there. Don't try to 'convince' just with anecdotes from sighted comparison.

 

[ahofer]

I know there’s an idea here that visual/sensory bias is underexplored. I don’t think that’s true. Here are some quick google results.

Bias in Auditory Perception - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Neural Mechanisms Underlying the Auditory Looming Bias - PMC

Our auditory system constantly keeps track of our environment, informing us about our surroundings and warning us of potential threats. The auditory looming bias is an early perceptual phenomenon, reflecting higher alertness of listeners to ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Certainly the concepts of confirmation/expectation bias is well established, but also seems to have been examined in auditory contexts. Is that insufficient evidence to control for it?

 

[pablolie]

we live in an era where personal belief can triumph over basic, proven scientific facts.

people out there claiming the moon landing never happened, the earth is flat, and Bible creationism can be proven (which one of the 3 contradictory versions in the Old Testament they never bother to clarify, though ). or the current hurricanes were engineered. or some baby eating satanic cartels control politics.

at least believing in audible differences between identically measuring devices is innocent enough...

 

[Miguelón]

Is been months since the last time I red this post, I hope now I’m more wise than before.

From time to time the question turns around and I was confused because even accepting scientific arguments I still perceive audible differences between my various DACs.

Finally I think I have one possible explanation, but maybe unsatisfactory for the majority. But to me it explains a lot of things and is sustained by my new (little but yet solid) knowledge in electronics.

First we should reformulate the question of the post and specify if the DAC is a pure standalone analogue to digital converter or if it has a volume analogue control (normally an attenuator).

In my particular case, all of my devices have this knob, or internal adjustments to regulate voltage output. And this is what I think it changes.

All attenuation or gain stage add its own harmonics to the signal, the more the gain (attenuation or magnification) the more harmonics it has. The better the quality the lesser the harmonics, in general. I expect also some crap in passive or active preamps…

This explains the subtle changes on tonality when combining different outputs voltages with corresponding volumes on the amp, or the different tonality I found between two DAC-amps since I’m not listening at full voltage. Gain is then different in the preamp section and also the circuits should have slightly different harmonics.

Recently I was really surprised when comparing Genelec 8020 vs Genelec G Two (same electronics but different sensitivity by 10 dB) and also 8030C vs G Three.

The professional lineup has a by default 106 dB @ 1V sensitivity and to compare it with the home version at 96 dB @ 1V I should reduce the input gain by 10 dB using the 80xx inbuilt attenuator which changes quite noticeably the sound.

I hope some of the confusion is explained by the less linear preamps and attenuators, and some people try to compare only pure DACs: then I’m sure that is impossible to differentiate harmonics in the order of magnitude they show on measurements

 

[olds1959special]

Since the Fiio K11 R2R has no remote control it can't really work in my main system so I moved to my bookshelf speaker desktop setup. I was having some issues with the bass being too much and the sound not seeming natural, a problem I had with another Fiio DAC I tried that I ended up returning. Using a silver IC seemed to help. Also I'm using OS mode for a better sound (imo.)