How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

[Old_School_Brad]

Can you point me to an ASR thread where there is a 'final conclusion' as opposed to it simply being shut down for being tediously repetitive?

Most threads reach a final conclusion within the first two pages, after which the free-for-all skirmishes begin.

The most satisfying threads are when the OP has a technical issue, the hive mind solves it, the OP expresses their thanks, and the thread is archived for others on the web who are searching for the same solution.

 

[antcollinet]

Did it ever happen to you, that a speaker measured perfectly flat but for some reason it didn't sound good to YOUR ears? Maybe a tube amp that didn't measure well but it sounded really good? I have.

Appearance has NOTHING to do with science, yet people generally do find a beautiful speaker more appealing and better sounding. Snake oil in plain view? Yea, maybe. Cheap parts inside and beautiful outside is rather deceptive. Buyer beware.

First - no speaker measures perfectly flat both on and off axis.

Speakers that measure perfectly flat anechoically will not measure so when in a room. Speaker sound is far more about speaker room interaction than it is about perfect speaker measurements. The only point is you need a well measuring speaker to sound good in a good and well treated and/or corrected room.

All the other stuff can be (and usually is) the result of perceptive bias, rather than the soundwaves reaching your ears - which is where basic listening controls come in. And the problem with relying on bias to get the sound you want is it is unreliable and inconsisitent. It can vary from hour to hour based on how you feel, how comfortable you are, state of imbibement etc etc. It also tends to fade over time as the novelty of the new/beautiful component wears off, or as your listening changes from “listening to how a new component sounds” to “listening to music as normal”

 

[DSJR]

To summarize,
A 300 dollar multibit Schiit dac didn’t cause, fixed the fatigue.
A more expensive DS dac caused fatigue. I sold it and got some cash back.
I didn't get swindled by some snake oil peddler and gave him ten thousand dollars for some R2R magic dac because soundstage extended from sky to the moon or something.
My wallet is happy. I found my end game dac for 300 dollars. Everything's well in life again.

Late question and things may have moved on,, but are you sure it's not the amp/speaker issues/room causing fatigue with so-called'accurate' dacs?

I mean and apologies for going off on a tangent, I fullt 'get' what many audiophiles prefer about the different presentation of the vinyl format, but in my case it's from the opposite end, me trying to liven up and have more 'sparkle' from my vinyl rig rather than 'toning down' the digital (and somewhere between, my FM tuner) to match the slightly 'gentler' vinyl presentation.

 

[Haskil]

This isn’t even about the a forum, nor ASR in particular. It’s about what the industry does to spread misinformation, leading to literal brainwashing of customers into thinking they need all kinds of nonsense to listen to good audio. It’s absurd to think that people need this fantasy world to enjoy good audio. It’s just another trap the industry laid out to perpetuate their BS, and people also fall right into it. The point being: this state of mind is not organic.

You can say people should be aware of the BS, but if no one is prepared to expose it, people can’t find out either. So this is where ASR comes in. We drag the horses to the water. They need to figure out for themselves if it is save to drink…

There you have it, it's not even a question of a crusade that the brave knights of ASR would lead, but of an alternative source of information from which anyone who finds it on the internet, and it is increasingly easy to find it. find, can come and find out. And this fair and reliable alternative source of information is an island in an ocean of various and varied lies that brainwash music lovers.
Reason why ASR is criticized, called into question on various forums or blogs which are dominated by of fanatic subjectivists who also regularly register on ASR to troll or question the very foundations of this testing site, which opens discussions whose educational value is immense because it hinders the golden words of the gurus... ASR is a big stone in their shoe.

So yes there is no perceptible difference between two DACs whose performance all measures say puts their characteristics beyond the reach of our ears. And this regardless of the price of the two DACs compared.

 

[Sal1950]

This isn’t even about the a forum, nor ASR in particular. It’s about what the industry does to spread misinformation, leading to literal brainwashing of customers into thinking they need all kinds of nonsense to listen to good audio. It’s absurd to think that people need this fantasy world to enjoy good audio. It’s just another trap the industry laid out to perpetuate their BS, and people also fall right into it. The point being: this state of mind is not organic.

You can say people should be aware of the BS, but if no one is prepared to expose it, people can’t find out either. So this is where ASR comes in. We drag the horses to the water. They need to figure out for themselves if it is save to drink…

AMEN, That's the issues I've fought here since the inception of ASR in 2016.
The BS and flat out lies spread by the print and web based "high end audio" media has turned the passion of the pursuit of SOTA High Fidelity into a circus I'm almost ashamed to be part of it. It's become all about the profits to be made by the little boys club of snake-oil pushers, the media, their advertisers, and the companies selling $10,000+++ cables, $100,000 components and analog sources such as turntables and reel to reel tape. To read these media sources today you have to believe if your not spending $100,000+ on a power amp that weights hundreds of pounds you have no chance of hearing the very best todays audio technology can offer. It's become a land where "sounds good to me" rules the day, since no one can ever debate what sounds good to you personally, the numbers and reality be damned.

 

[pkane]

Can you point me to an ASR thread where there is a 'final conclusion' as opposed to it simply being shut down for being tediously repetitive?

This particular thread will go on until there are no more people willing to accept beliefs and faulty perceptions over logic and science. In other words, until the Sun runs out of fuel and becomes a red giant, or the universe experiences a heat death.

 

[ahofer]

In fairness, this is one of two threads where it is allowed to go on ad nauseam (the other being the strangely named “measurements - everything or nothing” thread). When it happens elsewhere it gets moved to one of these two collectors.

 

[Sal1950]

This particular thread will go on until there are no more people willing to accept beliefs and faulty perceptions over logic and science. In other words, until the Sun runs out of fuel and becomes a red giant, or the universe experiences a heat death.

Very true, but the problem lays that if the tread gets closed, someone will start a new one soon. LOL
We buy them books, send them to school, and what do they do?
Eat the teacher.

 

[NTTY]

I listen to some reviews based on listening impressions and personal opinions instead of purely science based facts.

So you listen to others’ opinions and impressions instead of facts?
This is not reasonable, in audio and anywhere else.
Trust but verify.

 

[voodooless]

Eat the teacher.

We should draw some inspiration from this:

 

[voodooless]

This is not reasonable, in audio and anywhere else.

It’s classic: accept the science when it aligns with one’s perception, and if not, one simply ignores it and claim that there must be something that wasn’t discovered or hasn’t been measured yet. I call it “supermarket science”.

 

[Sal1950]

We should draw some inspiration from this:

Reminds me of my favorite scene from Fargo. Steve Buscemi goes in the tree chipper. ROTF

 

[sonitus mirus]

I imagine newcomers to this site might view these threads (this one and the measurements thread) as heated debates full of controversy, but they really aren't. They’re more like comic relief and serve as honey traps to keep the chaos out of other discussions. I find them highly entertaining—probably because I’m a bit immature—but I do occasionally learn something new from the participation of very knowledgeable and patient contributors.

 

[ahofer]

People don’t change their mind immediately, of course. But a properly planted seed of doubt goes a long way. My ‘seed’ was the Stereo Review amplifier test. Prior to that I just accepted the nonsense, and I was resistant to the article's conclusions - thinking the level matching had somehow made the sound worse and such.

But that seed grew in the back of my mind, and then, many years later, when I could go on the internet and see how lopsided the evidence was…I became more open to the idea. It’s always easier to come around when it feels more like you are doing it on your own.

Perhaps the best we can hope for a more objective audio culture is that we’ve planted that seed of doubt.

 

[Deckard01]

Too many pages so as to have a sum up right!?

 

[ahofer]

Too many pages so as to have a sum up right!?

Taking the thread title questions in order:

1) they don’t
2) unfortunately, yes.

Sprinkled throughout:
“I can hear it”
“Did you level match? Did you listen blinded”
“I don’t need to it was obvious/my wife could even hear it”
“Yeah, we don’t buy that one bit”
“You guys suck/you take all the fun out of it/go listen to your graphs.”
“At least we didn’t go to your place and throw turds in your punch bowl.”

 

[Mart68]

Too many pages so as to have a sum up right!?

I can have a go if you like:

'Most DACs don't have a sound signature and those that do have them for mundane reasons, such as heroic amounts of noise or very early roll-off in the HF.

To date, no evidence acceptable to the experts has been produced to upset this paradigm.'

 

[Sal1950]

I think the good news has been the success of this site over the last 8 (REALLY?) years.
Maybe people want and need to believe they don't have to spend High End kinds of money to get SOTA audio (or very close too it)
But we give them the tools (education) to figure out much of it on their own.
The snake-oil subjective believer pushers had a bunch of years that went almost unchallenged and gained a lot of ground.
Since the demise of mainstream mags like Stereo Review & Audio, undergrounds like The Audio Critic, etc; things had run wild.
But today you can read & feel the impressions ASR, Archmago, Audioholics, more, has made around the web, their waves have been felt and made quite a few of the criminals in the industry nervous.
Thanks Amir for giving us this platform to argue back with real science and evidence against the fantasy world that has led the industry. For a couple decades the objective community was ridiculed, silenced and banned from putting out our facts
I don't know where we would be now without the leverage we gained from free, honest discussions, along with some great use of humor, here.
The BIG MONEY was stacked against us.

Can it really be 3 decades or more since Peter wrote these words?
"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information? "Peter Aczel"

 

[majingotan]

Got to demo the newest Topping Stack this weekend! Heck I can’t tell the sonic difference between the D90 1-bit discrete + A90 discrete and their upcoming Topping D900/A900 stack through my Hifiman Susvara on sighted listening

However, looks wise, I’m willing to spend the extra dough on the D900/A900 stack! It’s a beaut in person to my tastes

 

[Tinker]

So you listen to others’ opinions and impressions instead of facts?
This is not reasonable, in audio and anywhere else.
Trust but verify.

Nope. I never said anything like that.