Sennheiser HD660s - divisive headphones

[solderdude]

There are so many things that effect sound wow.

see this and this (same drivers different circumstances)

Also the last part of this page will show you the effect of changes at the rear of the HD559 driver.

Modding is fun to do but without checking changes with measurements one can be really in the dark. When we take into account that the hearing gets used to sound when exposed to a sound signature the only way to do this by ear would be to have a reference at hand and between 'mods' reset your brain/hearing by comparing to a known fixed reference. Not against how one remembered it sounding. Another way to check for changes by ear is by owning 2 of the same headphones and keeping one stock and compare to that one to see if it improves in overall SQ.

 

[Agony]

I already stumbled upon your site (thanks for the great work, btw., greatly appreciated). In this case it looks more different to me than it sounds.

When I read about the very different reviews for the 660s I sometimes wonder whether there are variations in the production. Considering the price there shouldn't be.

From the reading that i have done on his site , there are way more expansive headphones that have for me more important problems like channel imbalance . Most of Sennheiser are good on that L+R channel even if they are cheaper i think this is more important .

 

[Agony]

see this and this (same drivers different circumstances)

I have read the dampening article and honestly this is what makes me start that , But i havent read about the pads , will do that now.

Until now i have used Dekoni , Drop, Brainwavz on my HD 6XX and nothing worked us i expected there was a lot of midbass on all of them, Drop was velur , Dekoni was Leather , Brainwavz was Hybrid angled with extra rings to fit inside , havent test the Yaxi.

Do u know if there is any pad like the Originals , inside leatherette and outside velour or even something that sounds close to original ? Some say Dekoni fenestrated but i havent try it .

 

[solderdude]

I haven't measured HD650 alternatives other than a cheap knock-off Ali-Express which looks quite similar looking at the pads but does change tonality over a wide range about 2dB so audible but not really objectionable.

No idea why I haven't posted this in the HD650 page yet.
Haven't bought any other alternative pads as they will certainly alter the response. It is fine as it is and needs just a little EQ.

 

[Agony]

I haven't measured HD650 alternatives other than a cheap knock-off Ali-Express which looks quite similar looking at the pads but does change tonality over a wide range about 2dB so audible but not really objectionable.

View attachment 128464

No idea why I haven't posted this in the HD650 page yet.
Haven't bought any other alternative pads as they will certainly alter the response. It is fine as it is and needs just a little EQ.

I just visit your download page and reading again the pdf files 650 mods , I keep looking for ready profiles to use in apo or wavelet but i cant find .
I think i will keep everything at stock and HD6XX or 650 use your eq profile so i can have a baseline .

 

[solderdude]

I don't believe in headphone measurements to be exact. They can be used to look for changes under similar circumstances, point out obvious flaws and indicate tonal balance (issues).
I know my measurements can be off 2 to 4 dB in the 3kHz area compared to perceived tonal balance due to pinna gain. This is depending on driver angle and diameter. The bigger the diameter and the bigger the angle the worse the deviation.
I do not use digital EQ so there are no profiles nor would I ever base any EQ on 1 measurement, regardless of who makes it on what test fixture. None will tell the absolute truth. Some are closer to specific standards then others though.

Best practice would be to look at as many measurements as possible. Find commonalities that are potentially audible and apply some 'simple parametric' EQ just to compensate and then have a listen and get used to the changed signature for a week or so and after getting used to it revert back to no EQ and see if the EQ really did what you wanted.

 

[Agony]

see this and this (same drivers different circumstances)

Also the last part of this page will show you the effect of changes at the rear of the HD559 driver.

Modding is fun to do but without checking changes with measurements one can be really in the dark. When we take into account that the hearing gets used to sound when exposed to a sound signature the only way to do this by ear would be to have a reference at hand and between 'mods' reset your brain/hearing by comparing to a known fixed reference. Not against how one remembered it sounding. Another way to check for changes by ear is by owning 2 of the same headphones and keeping one stock and compare to that one to see if it improves in overall SQ.

Ok this is a very serious work u have done there , omg thats why u are the Holy Grail in this forum.

 

[Agony]

I don't believe in headphone measurements to be exact. They can be used to look for changes under similar circumstances.
I do not use digital EQ so there are no profiles nor would I ever base any EQ on 1 measurement, regardless of who makes it on what test fixture.

Best practice would be to look at as many measurements as possible. Find commonalities that are potentially audible and apply some 'simple parametric' EQ just to compensate and then have a listen and get used to the changed signature for a week or so and after getting used to it revert back to no EQ and see if the EQ really did what you wanted.

I get it , u have a point its almost the shame like calibrating a panel , so many times i tried and so many times i found that every panel from the shame model was different .

 

[solderdude]

thats why u are the Holy Grail in this forum.

Amir is ...

I don't conform to any headphone measurement 'standards' because headphone standards are just that.
Standards are something that has been decided to be just that based on validated and documented research so others can comply to that 'standard' so results are more comparable.
Standards are not 'fuzzy' in electronics but it is fuzzy in headphone and also somewhat in the speaker realm but less so IMO.
I do my own research and my website is kind-off my only legacy/knowledge transfer on this. I post some things here too because Amir's site is closest to my 'findings' and 'views'. It makes my measurements different and know where they are flawed so to me they are reliable with the pinna gain uncertainty in mind.
Concerning HP's there is no gold standard to me but agree that some bass boost is essential. Harman standard is 'better' than diffuse field as a target though (free field is for speakers, not suited for headphones at all). They are all standards yet differ in result substantially. Harman could be closest to reality but isn't above 8kHz. And between 5kHz and 13kHz the nasty-ness is most appalling to me so want this to be the most accurate which pinna measurements simply can't be and are known to be incorrect in that range.
The truth is somewhere in the middle most likely.

 

[noel_fs]

Hi LaurenDean,

I had to face the same choice about 6 months ago. I ended up buying a HD600 and I'm glad I did. I think most people should, provided they have access to EQ.

The HD660S is clearly overpriced. The HD600 is much cheaper, and like 3125b wisely said, it can be EQed closer to the Harman curve (as shown by Oratory's preference score), so ultimately the EQed result will be 'better' if I dare put it that way.

About the Pros you mentioned, a) simply doesn't matter anymore if you EQ them. Just check the HD600 EQed frequency response : it's really hard to get any closer than that to the actual Harman curve. And b), no, I don't think the HD660S is more resolving than the previous models (I would need scientific evidence to back up that claim, not subjective impressions). So within the Sennheiser range, if you have access to EQ I don't see a reason for getting a 660S. The 600 is better when EQed and cheaper.

With that said, for critical listening I would also consider the Sundara. I own both of them (Sundara and HD600). The HD600 may be subjectively (and marginally) more pleasing for vocal and acoustic stuff, it has that kind of magical midrange texture that's hard to explain. But the Sundara is definitely more versatile if you listen to a lot of music genres, plus when EQed it goes lower than the HD600 without distortion.

• HD600 Pros : price (< 300 €), performance when EQed, magical midrange, weight (only 260g)
• HD600 Cons : doesn't go very low (even when EQed), not very versatile, very small soundstage, comfort is OK but not amazing, plastic build
  
  
• Sundara Pros : decent price (300-350 €), performance when EQed (including bass down to 30 Hz), more versatile than the HD600, very precise treble, bigger soundstage
• Sundara Cons : weight (372g, which remains reasonable especially for a planar, and the comfort is OK too, so not a big deal)... well, not a lot of cons actually.

Both will need an amp to drive them to their fullest potential. The HD600 is 300 Ohm, but I have found the Sundara to be more demanding, due to its low sensitivity (94 dB). That's also confirmed by solderdude's Headphone Power Table : the Sundara needs more power than the HD600 to reach the same SPL. But again, with an amp it won't be a problem, both headphones are relatively easy to drive with any decent amp.

After some months of listening, I have to recognize that the Sundara is indeed more versatile than the HD600. So ultimately I would recommend it for critical listening. There's a reason why many consider it the best headphone under 500 €. As for me, I'm very happy to keep both, because I can enjoy the HD600 on vocal and acoustic stuff, and switch to the Sundara for the rest.

580/600/650 and 660 are in different leagues thats why they cost more. i do agree they are overpriced, but like eveything in the audio world.


they all have the same staging and sound sig, but, the imgaging of 660 is something the other three cant compete with. 660 retrieves a little more detail and consdierably cleaner. I love 580 to death tho.

 

[Agony]

Amir is ...

I don't conform to any 'standards' because standards are just that. I do my own research and my website is kind-off my only legacy/knowledge transfer on this. I post some things here too because Amir's site is closest to my 'findings' and 'views'.
Standards are something that has been decided to be just that based on validated and documented research so others can comply to that 'standard' so results are more comparable. Concerning HP's there is no gold standard to me but agree that some bass boost is essential.
Standards are not 'fuzzy' in electronics but it is fuzzy in headphone and also somewhat in the speaker realm but less so IMO.

What really matters for me is that i learn a lot and thank u for that , your work is great and honestly most people wouldn't even care , i was so sure about my opinion and u was kindly explain to me that i was wrong .

So i read all your pdf , i see that AKG foam works ok in front of the driver , i have never seen this foam up close and its really hard to find it on my country , i have the foam disc that Beyer use ( the old one without the ring that TYG series use) is this close or the shame ?

 

[Agony]

580/600/650 and 660 are in different leagues thats why they cost more. i do agree they are overpriced, but like eveything in the audio world.


they all have the same staging and sound sig, but, the imgaging of 660 is something the other three cant compete with. 660 retrieves a little more deatail and consdierably cleaner. I love 580 to death tho.

Agree on that , imaging on 660s is just way another level , it was the first that pops to me yesterday i was watching Doctor Sleep with HD660s for the second time ( first was with 6XX) and there was scary directional position .

Where did u find HD 580 ? i have never heard any of those its really hard to find closed box or perfect condition.

 

[solderdude]

different foam. The AKG foam has cloth on top of the foam and the foam is different in density.
It is very similar to Superlux foam (HD681) that comes with its pads.
The differences are measurable but IMO not as audible (too small a difference but technically there)

Not all HD580 are created equal. The latest HD580 versions are basically HD600 with a different grille/paint job.

 

[Agony]

580/600/650 and 660 are in different leagues thats why they cost more. i do agree they are overpriced, but like eveything in the audio world.


they all have the same staging and sound sig, but, the imgaging of 660 is something the other three cant compete with. 660 retrieves a little more detail and consdierably cleaner. I love 580 to death tho.

It looks like others like the HD name way back in time also

 

[snowsurfer]

Just to mention regarding price, I bought my 660s from an official retailer in Spain for 330€ on a sale, and I've seen them go to that price from time to time. IMO that's the perfect price for them. It's been two years now and I'm very, very happy with them. I use Oratory Harman target PEQ in Peace/APO with the low shelf reduced by 1db (a bit less bass boost) and -5.5db preamp gain. Currently looking at Dan Clark Audio closed models to complement (not substitute) the Senns. HifiMan is a no-go for me due to all the QC reports I've seen. Comfort, sound and QC are all equally important IMHO.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

580/600/650 and 660 are in different leagues thats why they cost more. i do agree they are overpriced, but like eveything in the audio world.

I really can't let you say that. Not only it isn't true, but like said by many people, actually 600 > 650 > 660S. Feel free to think othewise, we all have different ears. And I'm not the only one saying it. See this for example : https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/bcbz8g
It's a bit naive to think that a headphone is better just because it's more recent or because its model number is higher. The 650 ans the 660S never managed to do 'better' than the 600, which is why the 600 is still being sold after 24 years. Sennheiser was never able to replace it.

 

[solderdude]

It looks like others like the HD name

Superlux names most headphones the same way as well.
They even have one called HD660 which looks like (but isn't) a Beyerdynamic copy .

 

[Agony]

I really can't let you say that. Not only it isn't true, but like said by many people, actually 600 > 650 > 660S. Feel free to think othewise, we all have different ears. And I'm not the only one saying it. See this for example : https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/bcbz8g
It's a bit naive to think that a headphone is better just because it's more recent or because its model number is higher. The 650 ans the 660S never managed to do 'better' than the 600, which is why the 600 is still being sold after 24 years. Sennheiser was never able to replace it.

For me its a bit naive to say 600>650>660s and saying that 660s never managed to do better than 600 or 650 is again a bit naive .
The reason is because people have all of them know that all of them are great for different reasons and taste ( after all its not night and day difference ) On some aspects 600 are better 650 on others and 660s on other ... For example 660s are faster , tighter , better imaging compare to 600 and 650 , but some people love the vocals the mids the shouty character of hd 600 or the veil of hd 650 , personally i like all of them ( like i said sound signature its not that far away)
Is it an update from 600 or 650 or better ? Again it depends by the taste of some people , In my opinion Sennheiser keep all the HD 6 line for that reason to make happy all of them .

I understand someone telling me that i prefer HD 600 and i didnt like 650 or 660s or i have 600 and i dont want something similar i get that ... But saying that 650 or 660s never do better than 600 , Shows me these things : that he never had all of them , or never used for time all of them , or his brain all these years like the 600 sound and cant like anything else , or cant dont want to bealive there is something better to what he already have .

So in my opinion just be open to something new , when HD650 came out the same conversation happens and now HD600 and HD 650 have both of them write a good history and loved by a lot people .

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

I stopped reading here :

the shouty character of hd 600

Discussion on the HD6-- models isn't anything new, and comments like yours won't change its outcome. It has already been stated by too many people for you to change anything. Read my link again, carefully this time. And show some respect.
Now I have better things to do, so I'm out of this useless topic. I won't be replying anymore. Happy discussing.

 

[Agony]

Superlux names most headphones the same way as well.
They even have one called HD660 which looks like (but isn't) a Beyerdynamic copy .

By the way what is your oldest headphone that listen to ? It must be some history , My first was an old Sony DR -S4 that my dad used to listen Queen , i think it was 1984-85