Seeking recommendations: Best active speakers for $10k/pair? (Would also be offered for measurement.)

[Sancus]

I looked on their(Neumann) website, but couldn't find any spinorama style measurements. Can you give me a link.

It's on the german site,

KH80: https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-80-dsp-a-g#technical-data
KH120: https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-120-a-g#technical-data
KH310: https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-310-a#technical-data
KH420: https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-420#technical-data

And also in the manuals(ie: KH310: https://en-de.neumann.com/product_files/8981/download ).

It looks like they've updated their stuff to higher resolution since last I checked, and also added the nice SPL at 1/3% distortion graph format that S&R uses. The data is in the form of contour plots rather than spinorama exactly, but it's the same info.

 

[richard12511]

I’ve compared the Revel F206 vs the Neumann KH310 in the same room, and it’s not even remotely close. The KH310 is comically superior to the F206 in every way except perhaps peak SPL and some dispersion characteristics. It’s not hard to understand why, either: the KH310 is MUCH more neutral with far less defects in the overall frequency response, and has bass that extends far deeper and with much better neutrality (because it doesn’t begin to roll off slowly until the very end, and it lacks the bloated mid bass hump most passive speakers have to extend bass response). It’s not that the F206 is bad by any means (I love them), but it’s hard to compete with the neutrality and capabilities of active speakers in a “fair” comparison with no EQ on either speaker.

The superior bass extension is perhaps the most stark and undeniable superiority of the Neumann, but the lack of the mid bass bump and generally superior neutrality is what really sets it apart IMO in terms of perceived fidelity.

I’m sure the Revels would be much more competitive if EQ’ed so bass response is more flat and extends further down to 30hz like my Neumann KH310’s and Genelec 8351B’s do, but I also don’t know how much I’d be stressing the F206 in that case, since it clearly wasn’t designed for that kind of bass extension whereas the Neumann/Genelec obviously was AND comes with self-protecting limiter circuits.

I do plan to blind test these all in the same room, once my stands arrive for the Genelec’s. I think the more difficult comparison if any will be between the actives (8351B vs KH310). I’ve already compared these in the same room and find the Genelec’s better, though I’m not sure why. The difference was nowhere near as extreme as that between the Neumann KH310 vs Revel F206 though, where the Revel didn’t stand a chance.

I also plan to test vs my Ascend Towers which have even wider dispersion than the Revel F206, I believe.

P.S. Both the Neumann KH310 and Revel F206 cost about the same with dealer discounts. You should be able to get a pair of KH310 brand new for under $3K USD if you shop around.

I think the F208 would probably be a better comparison. The F206 is far less neutral for some reason, which I find really weird.

 

[richard12511]

Here is one, more available on Neumann site.

file:///C:/Users/Lat/Downloads/resolution_kh310_v12-6sr.pdf

did you mean to try and link a local file?

 

[richard12511]

It's on the german site,

KH80: https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-80-dsp-a-g#technical-data
KH120: https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-120-a-g#technical-data
KH310: https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-310-a#technical-data
KH420: https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-420#technical-data

And also in the manuals(ie: KH310: https://en-de.neumann.com/product_files/8981/download ).

It looks like they've updated their stuff to higher resolution since last I checked, and also added the nice SPL at 1/3% distortion graph format that S&R uses. The data is in the form of contour plots rather than spinorama exactly, but it's the same info.

Awesome, thanks. I wouldn't have thought to look on the german site.

 

[Vintage57]

My bad, here is the pdf.

 

[echopraxia]

I think the F208 would probably be a better comparison. The F206 is far less neutral for some reason, which I find really weird.

Perhaps, but even there the KH310 still has much more neutral and deeper bass extension than the F208 (at least going by ASR measurements and not the old Revel ones that Amir believes to be in error). The KH310 only begins to roll off at 40hz and extends to 30hz at -6db. The F208 starts rolling off at 70-80hz, and is at -15db at 30hz according to the Klippel measurements posted on this site. Even if the F208 has better off axis performance, we all know it’s very hard for any other factor to overpower bass extension differences as large as these (unless one of the speakers has major flaws).

Again, I’m not commenting on the SPL capabilities, where I would expect (just based on the dual 8” woofers) that the F208 could be pushed much louder to fill very large spaces at high SPL. But for most other listening situations, it’s really hard to beat what these active speakers offer.

Neumann KH310:

Revel F208:

 

[Jimshoe]

The demo 8351Bs arrived today . . . . . I think I've heard the future!

Setup was easy, until I discovered that Genelec's GLM software (essential for calibration) does not (yet) run on Apple Catalina and so I was forced to spend an hour or so setting up a virtual Windows machine on my Macbook - grrrrrrr.

Anyhoo, once running the software worked beautifully and auto-calibrated the speakers pretty flat. Unfortunately it does not seem easy to apply a house curve to the response (beyond some basic slopes etc. that are included as presets) in GLM. This may however be wrong - as I have not spent much time (beyond the basics) with the software.

With only the GLM software calibration this what they looked like:

I then manually added a 6db lift below 60Hz and a slow roll-off above 2.5KHz in my MiniDSP SHD's PEQ and sat back for a listen.

Subjectively:

I am astounded by the bass! The depth available (relative to the size of the cabinet) is extraordinary. I'm really not sure how it is done but it works amazingly. Correspondingly, as Echopraxia already noted, any concern about maximum sound level is unwarranted and VERY loud in (my 3x4m room) is easy.

I've not spent any time with coaxial speakers before and there is an immediate 'correctness' to the sound which I suspect is a result of this. Likewise imagery is first rate and, in comparison with my ATCs, the Genelecs are definitely the better speaker.

I have them till Tuesday so I will listen and experiment some more. I've also arranged to try the Neuman KH420 (an entirely different beast).

Will add more later . . .

Doug

 

[Purité Audio]

GLM did EQ flat in the very early versions I used but I thought this had changed?
Perhaps the change is the basic slopes, interested to hear your thoughts.
Keith

 

[hege]

You adjust the curve yourself, with "Sound Character Profiler" menu.

 

[Jimshoe]

You adjust the curve yourself, with "Sound Character Profiler" menu.

Yes, I saw that, but could only see the presets there. I saw there was a manual option but not sure how you use it?

 

[hege]

Yes, I saw that, but could only see the presets there. I saw there was a manual option but not sure how you use it?

Not sure how one couldn't figure it out? Select manual, and adjust the values. You will see the curve changing.

 

[Jimshoe]

Not sure how one couldn't figure it out? Select manual, and adjust the values. You will see the curve changing.

I was too keen to listen!

I will spend more time in GLM tomorrow.

 

[detlev24]

[...] Correspondingly, as Echopraxia already noted, any concern about maximum sound level is unwarranted and VERY loud in (my 3x4m room) is easy. [...]

Could you provide distortion measurements at various SPL [with and] without application of room EQ; or @echopraxia?

 

[hege]

I was too keen to listen!

I will spend more time in GLM tomorrow.

Just remember that GLM doesn't have some sort of magic phychoacoustic algorithm, it's just a simple auto-EQ to make response flat and that's it. Try different custom curves and don't be afraid to tweak the equalizer values it made. For example if you like a little more bass, simply adjust the filters to leave it a little more raised (assuming it was raised to begin with). For all purposes intended, if you have own mic, you can even use REW to come up with the filter values, that's what even Genelec installers who come to your home here in Finland do. Might even end up with better results if using moving mic method..

 

[Jimshoe]

Not sure how one couldn't figure it out? Select manual, and adjust the values. You will see the curve changing.

Hmmm, just had another look . . .

It's not obvious how I adjust the values???

 

[echopraxia]

Hmmm, just had another look . . .
It's not obvious how I adjust the values???

There are several ways to do this. I'll show you a few of the ways I've discovered so far.

First, there are the "Sound Character Profiler" presets, which I see you've discovered. For example -- profiler on the left, and filters + responses of one of my speakers on the right:

Now if I select "Manual" preset, it defaults to flat target curve:

Now if you play around with the "Extension" and "Strength" values, not only do you see the target curve change, but if you keep your eye on Filters 3 & 4 on the right, you'll see the raw filter parameters changing:

So this leads us to the most flexible way of tuning the curve via Filters 3 & 4 manually -- set the "Profiler Preset" to "None"; then the grayed-out Filters 3 & 4 on your speakers open up and you can tune them with complete freedom!

 

[D888]

has anyone tried the PMC or the Focal monitors?

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/twotwo8--pmc-twotwo8-8-inch-active-studio-monitor-pair

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Trio11Be--focal-trio11-be-10-inch-powered-studio-monitor

 

[aarons915]

I don't know how much I'd go messing around with target curves in the GLM software, I think I would use it only to EQ room modes under the transition frequency since they basically measure perfectly neutral and should sound ideal as is.

 

[Jimshoe]

I don't know how much I'd go messing around with target curves in the GLM software, I think I would use it only to EQ room modes under the transition frequency since they basically measure perfectly neutral and should sound ideal as is.

Yes, but I don't want completely neutral; I prefer a more Harman Curve sound.

 

[Jimshoe]

There are several ways to do this. I'll show you a few of the ways I've discovered so far.

First, there are the "Sound Character Profiler" presets, which I see you've discovered. For example -- profiler on the left, and filters + responses of one of my speakers on the right:

View attachment 69614

Now if I select "Manual" preset, it defaults to flat target curve:

View attachment 69615

Now if you play around with the "Extension" and "Strength" values, not only do you see the target curve change, but if you keep your eye on Filters 3 & 4 on the right, you'll see the raw filter parameters changing:

View attachment 69616

So this leads us to the most flexible way of tuning the curve via Filters 3 & 4 manually -- set the "Profiler Preset" to "None"; then the grayed-out Filters 3 & 4 on your speakers open up and you can tune them with complete freedom!

View attachment 69617

Ah, thank you. I will try mucking about a bit with that.

I do think it would have been more logicial to put the filters you can use in the Sound Character Profiler in the window for the SCP! I'm also unclear what 'Extension' and 'Strength' mean!!

I do however need to 'read the f*ing manual' so, until I have done so, I better not complain!!!

Doug