Seeking recommendations: Best active speakers for $10k/pair? (Would also be offered for measurement.)

[HooStat]

I am starting to lean towards the Genelec 8351B

You could get a Genelec sub (7360) if you have an issue (though it probably pushes you past your budget a little bit). It would probably free up some SPL in the 8351B and also extend lower. At least, this is what I am telling myself. I would really like to hear them though to know for sure.

 

[napilopez]

In that case, the 8c would be ok for me.
Have somebody commented on the insane oversight of not including a remote for easy of use? The need to fiddle with the phone and an app disqualified the 8c's for me.

You need to be a special kind of nerd to think that it'll be wise to drop a remote and replace it with a phone.

I actually complete disagree here; I absolutely hate remotes on speakers. It's 2019; I always have my phone with me. Remotes get lost and having to rely on one to change settings is not my jam.

Edit: My bigger issue is actually that there's no Bluetooth or Wi-Fi on board. Not for streaming, but for settings. Having to set up an Ethernet connection just to change some settings is a pain if you have your speakers in your living room, where I assume most people don't have Ethernet. Plus it's another cable that's only used for settings (or Roon, if that's your things).

 

[Sancus]

Like this?

https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/studiomonitor-genelec-8351a-im-test/

It's a good rough guide, but I'm pretty sure the 8351B has improved woofer performance. It has 66% more power(250W vs 150W) and it seems like the racetrack was somewhat redesigned as well, as the dimensions are slightly different. No way to know for sure how much impact this has without another S&R review, though...

That said, the KH420 has ~300W of woofer power and a maybe slightly more efficient design, so it seems unlikely the 8351B has better low bass performance. You probably need to go to the 8361A if you want to be sure you have better bass than the 420. The 8361A has a 10" driver and 700W of power which will certainly blow the Neumanns away.

 

[Vintage57]

In case you didn’t see it, here is volume vs distortion plot for the full range KH420.

 

[Absolute]

I actually complete disagree here; I absolutely hate remotes on speakers. It's 2019; I always have my phone with me. Remotes get lost and having to rely on one to change settings is not my jam.

Edit: My bigger issue is actually that there's no Bluetooth or Wi-Fi on board. Not for streaming, but for settings. Having to set up an Ethernet connection just to change some settings is a pain if you have your speakers in your living room, where I assume most people don't have Ethernet. Plus it's another cable that's only used for settings (or Roon, if that's your things).

I hate my phone. Unlocking it, finding apps, phone freezes etc.
I had Phantom Silver here for awhile and ended up swearing that I would never ever touch another speaker that didn't let some kind of remote adjust the volume.
The worst thing that happened was one time I was listening to loud music and then the phone rang. Not. Annoying. At. All.

You use remote for tv, so why not use the same one for speakers as well?
I loved the Apple Remote with the Kii Three's and the fact that Kii turned themselves on when the tv went on and off again after 15 min of no signal.
Simple life.

Why not allow for both? App and remote. I mean, we're in 2020. How hard can it be?

 

[phoenixdogfan]

The crossover thing can be treated with timing. I would get a minidsp 2x4hd and spend considerably time messing with delays. If you listen at 70-80db, the 8351 is a better loudspeaker than the 8361. I would go with the 8351b + minidsp hd + dual subs(quad subs is even better). For 70-80db listening, I doubt that any system(regardless of budget) would sound better.

Dirac is coming up with a subwoofer integration module for Dirac Live 2. I think it might be the optimal way to integrate a sub to mains. My communication from them indicates DL 2 will be available for standalone PCs as of tommorrow, and multi channel with the bass module will follow on the the next couple of months. Before anyone sells their Revel 206s and 208s to buy Kii or D & D or Neumann, they should probably look into what can be done with multi subs and Dirac with bass management,

 

[Jon AA]

Sub localization blind tests have been performed in a controlled manner and virtually nobody managed to localize a sub playing up to 80Hz and many listeners have problems localizing a sub playing as high as 180Hz. Search AES database and you will easilly find articles on such researches.

That's not an accurate reading of the research at all. You're right, there has been quite a bit of it. And the basically industry-wide rule of thumb of 80 Hz (certainly not 180) is the result. Recommending anybody cross over that high (unless the subs are co-located with the speakers) is likely leading them down the wrong path.

Trinnov recommends for any speaker that needs to be crossed that high (hopefully only a small ceiling speaker or something like that) it's a good idea to cross it over to the nearest larger speaker instead of the subs (for example, a left side ceiling speaker would be crossed over to the left side surround speaker which itself is crossed over to the subs at a lower frequency).

 

[Vintage57]

Impressive I must admit. 8361A

 

[napilopez]

I hate my phone. Unlocking it, finding apps, phone freezes etc.
I had Phantom Silver here for awhile and ended up swearing that I would never ever touch another speaker that didn't let some kind of remote adjust the volume.
The worst thing that happened was one time I was listening to loud music and then the phone rang. Not. Annoying. At. All.

You use remote for tv, so why not use the same one for speakers as well?
I loved the Apple Remote with the Kii Three's and the fact that Kii turned themselves on when the tv went on and off again after 15 min of no signal.
Simple life.

Why not allow for both? App and remote. I mean, we're in 2020. How hard can it be?

Hahah fair enough. I felt the same way about the Phantoms so I feel you on that. In the case ofbthe 8cs though, the expectation so that they re being used with a separate device to control volume, so it's a bit different. Both is definitely the best!

 

[HooStat]

Impressive I must admit.View attachment 64047 8361A

Where is that from? (very nice)

 

[echopraxia]

Personally, I hate proprietary remotes. I fully support the idea of a product supporting universal remote integration, but every product having its own expensive proprietary remote adds up to a big bin full of unused remotes, in my experience anyway.

Impressive I must admit.View attachment 64047 8361A

I assume the bottom chart is SPL vs SNR, or something like that? Edit: Maybe they’re testing the max output the limiter allows with various test tone sweeps?

If so, that rules out the Neumann KH420 for me if only because the 8361 is close enough in bass power that bass differences should not be a concern (I can’t tell if it’s close or better though without a more precise understanding of the chart). Though I’m not entirely sure if I’m interpreting this chart vs the Neumann KH420 ones correctly.

And I must admit I’ve always wanted to try a Genelec 3-way coaxial to experience for myself how amazingly accurate they are. This would also be used in a office room which is smaller than my other speaker rooms, and has a healthy bass room gain (though I’ve not measured and isolated exactly how much it is).

At this point then I would tentatively narrow down the search to the 8351B vs 8361A. Now I need to understand what was improved from A to B, and what if anything I’d be missing out on from the 8361A vs the 8351B in terms of sound quality.

This is especially interesting now that the chart kindly provided above of the 8351B shows it has at least as much bass power as my Neumann KH310s, which I know to be a bit more than “sufficient” for my work-from-home listening enjoyment over the past month or so.

It is interesting also how the 8361A doesn’t seem to be equalized to significantly greater bass extension, despite its SPL reserves down low if I’m interpreting that last chart correctly.

 

[Vintage57]

Where is that from? (very nice)

unfortunately there could be copyright infringements with disclosure

 

[HooStat]

Unfortunately, disclosure itself is the copyright violation. Lack of attribution is irrelevant.

Also, it is very likely not a copyright violation at all. It is scientific and used for educational, non-profit purposes (i.e., ASR). See https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/fair-use-the-four-factors.html

But I certainly can't force anything. I appreciate that you sent it out since this is very relevant to me too.

 

[HooStat]

Nevermind. It is from Stereoplay April 2020. Just found it.

 

[q3cpma]

Personally, I hate proprietary remotes. I fully support the idea of a product supporting universal remote integration, but every product having its own expensive proprietary remote adds up to a big bin full of unused remotes, in my experience anyway.


I assume the bottom chart is SPL vs SNR, or something like that? Edit: Maybe they’re testing the max output the limiter allows with various test tone sweeps?

If so, that rules out the Neumann KH420 for me if only because the 8361 is close enough in bass power that bass differences should not be a concern (I can’t tell if it’s close or better though without a more precise understanding of the chart). Though I’m not entirely sure if I’m interpreting this chart vs the Neumann KH420 ones correctly.

And I must admit I’ve always wanted to try a Genelec 3-way coaxial to experience for myself how amazingly accurate they are. This would also be used in a office room which is smaller than my other speaker rooms, and has a healthy bass room gain (though I’ve not measured and isolated exactly how much it is).

At this point then I would tentatively narrow down the search to the 8351B vs 8361A. Now I need to understand what was improved from A to B, and what if anything I’d be missing out on from the 8361A vs the 8351B in terms of sound quality.

This is especially interesting now that the chart kindly provided above of the 8351B shows it has at least as much bass power as my Neumann KH310s, which I know to be a bit more than “sufficient” for my work-from-home listening enjoyment over the past month or so.

It is interesting also how the 8361A doesn’t seem to be equalized to significantly greater bass extension, despite its SPL reserves down low if I’m interpreting that last chart correctly.

Knowing Genelec, asking them for a similar SPL at fixed THD curve for the 8351B isn't bound to fail miserably.

 

[tential]

Price =/ performance.

I'd build whatever I wanted and not pay over inflated prices. We don't get suckered in amps/dacs... I'm not getting suckered on speakers.

 

[aarons915]

Price =/ performance.

I'd build whatever I wanted and not pay over inflated prices. We don't get suckered in amps/dacs... I'm not getting suckered on speakers.

Build something that remotely compares to something from the Genelec the one series( and prove it by sending it in for measurement) and we'll talk

 

[tential]

Build something that remotely compares to something from the Genelec the one series( and prove it by sending it in for measurement) and we'll talk

I haven't seen the genelec measured so I don't know, but I've seen a ton of designs from the diy community out there that are well documented and measured.

I'm going with most of those designs first.

Looking it up, I don't see anything special about the genelec. It wouldn't even fit my needs

 

[jonfitch]

I haven't seen the genelec measured so I don't know, but I've seen a ton of designs from the diy community out there that are well documented and measured.

I'm going with most of those designs first.

Looking it up, I don't see anything special about the genelec. It wouldn't even fit my needs

Nothing special about a one of a kind point source design? What, do you listen to all your music in the car or something?

 

[aarons915]

I haven't seen the genelec measured so I don't know, but I've seen a ton of designs from the diy community out there that are well documented and measured.

I'm going with most of those designs first.

Looking it up, I don't see anything special about the genelec. It wouldn't even fit my needs

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nelec-8341a-sam™-studio-monitor-review.11652/