Seeking recommendations: Best active speakers for $10k/pair? (Would also be offered for measurement.)

[QMuse]

In my experience you can absolutely hear where the sub is located - if you don't play the mains at the same time.

Have you tried it with your eyes covered? Have your friend cover your eyes and rotate you a few times so you loose room orientation and then try to point out the sub location.

Sub localization blind tests have been performed in a controlled manner and virtually nobody managed to localize a sub playing up to 80Hz and many listeners have problems localizing a sub playing as high as 180Hz. Search AES database and you will easilly find articles on such researches.

 

[Absolute]

Yes I have. It's easy, but that's because you don't use a brick wall filter in a real world scenario.

 

[QMuse]

Yes I have. It's easy, but that's because you don't use a brick wall filter in a real world scenario.

I don't see how the slope of the XO can affect this. Even with 12dB/octave LP filter you wont be able to hear a sub crossvered at 80Hz. In case you do hear it it is probably because some sounds above 80Hz are produced by your sub, like rattle etc which then enables you to localize it.

 

[aac]

But with that said, I am definitely going to be very mindful of reliability for any future purchases. So in my mind this completely rules out any expensive JBL options, which from what I’ve read are virtually plagued with fatal quality control and longevity/reliability problems.

.
If you are going for reliablity and "0 listening time loss" speakers with separate electronics (passive crossover or active crossover, your choice) are a better way to do things. If you can make electronics kit cost low enough, then you can just keep spare electronics and change it. The only problem would be if you burn the speaker itself. But no "black boxes" guarantee a good reliablity with the only vulnerable component being transducer damage.

 

[Absolute]

I don't see how the slope of the XO can affect this. Even with 12dB/octave LP filter you wont be able to hear a sub crossvered at 80Hz. In case you do hear it it is probably because some sounds above 80Hz are produced by your sub, like rattle etc which then enables you to localize it.

That could be, or it could be that something in your room gives it away. Producing simple tones is one thing, letting the sub play as the only thing playing will make it easy to localize it if you don't have brick wall filters.
I can still hear voices through the sub when I cross it over at 80 hz at 24 dB/oct.

*100 db at 80 hz will be 76 dB at 160 hz and 52 dB at 320 hz. Of course you can localize that.*
But you can't once the mains are playing at the same time.

*I'm math-retarded, so this is likely not accurate

 

[QMuse]

That could be, or it could be that something in your room gives it away. Producing simple tones is one thing, letting the sub play as the only thing playing will make it easy to localize it if you don't have brick wall filters.
I can still hear voices through the sub when I cross it over at 80 hz at 24 dB/oct.

*100 db at 80 hz will be 76 dB at 160 hz and 52 dB at 320 hz. Of course you can localize that.*
But you can't once the mains are playing at the same time.

*I'm math-retarded, so this is likely not accurate

I doubt it's room related, but yes, 52dB at 320Hz is indeed audible, so yur argument for brickwall XO is valid.

 

[4dbcut]

I'd say if you going to spend $10k, you better test them in your room. No measurements or other people's opinions would help. But I understand it's not always possible to make a test. When I'm buying speakers, I'm always making a lot of trips to different places to have a listen to different models.

It's a really hard choice between Neumann KH420 and Genelec 8361A. I liked the Genelecs more, great new technology, fantastic sound.

Also in that price range (exact $10k), I've had a chance to listen to ATC SCM45A once in a nicely treated room. Great experience - detailed, fast, flat (in a good way) sound. I had nothing to immediately compare them, so my recommendation is not technical, but more emotional. If you have them in your area, take a listen.

 

[echopraxia]

In my experience you can absolutely hear where the sub is located - if you don't play the mains at the same time. If you, then the higher frequencies of the speakers will dominate our radar.
But I much prefer two subs over one because that sounds far better and removes the localization issue if only low content is produced and speakers aren't making much noise.

Reading through this thread I think it's obvious that the Neumann's are so heavily favored that objectivity is lost, so not sure what could be said to combat that.

That’s not really true about Neumann bias. I was just explaining why they are a tempting option, since they’re a known successful choice for me. But if anything, right now I’m a little biased towards the Genelecs because if I’m going to pay this kind of money for speakers, I’d want them to be both extremely reliable and extremely accurate. And, I expect the KH420 will sound very similar to what I already have, so some variety would be nice too.

The D&D does look amazing, but I think I’m not going to be able to justify venturing out beyond established pro audio companies at this price range, unless perhaps they offer an extremely long warranty to prove they stand behind their product‘s longevity. But that doesn’t seem to be the case.

 

[echopraxia]

Have you tried it with your eyes covered? Have your friend cover your eyes and rotate you a few times so you loose room orientation and then try to point out the sub location.

Sub localization blind tests have been performed in a controlled manner and virtually nobody managed to localize a sub playing up to 80Hz and many listeners have problems localizing a sub playing as high as 180Hz. Search AES database and you will easilly find articles on such researches.

There is a clear sensation of bass pressure waves coming from a particular direction, and it‘s very disorienting/unpleasant when playing music from speakers in front of me when the bass has a clear sensation be flowing left to right across my head, etc.

I don’t think it’s expectation bias because I wasn’t even expecting it this last time, thinking that the previous experiences was due to the room. But in this (smaller) room it was even more obvious than other rooms.

BTW I think it’s been demonstrated here that even with a low crossover, there may still be audible content above 80hz, so I suppose that could explain it. But in that case, it seems so obvious then that all subwoofers will be localizable that I don’t get this common idea that they’re not. Unless everyone is using an extremely abrupt crossover, it will be localizable. But if you do, it seems doubtful you’ll have a good integration.

This is just another reason I’m dubious about this idea that subwoofers aren’t localized and should be positioned independently of the main speakers, unless the crossover is EXTREMELY low, as in 20-30hz or something. Otherwise, there will be audible artifacts from not just localization, but won’t there also be undesirable wave interference patterns from the crossover region, depending on exactly the relative positioning of the speakers and subs and the shape of your room?

 

[QMuse]

There is a clear sensation of bass pressure waves coming from a particular direction, and it‘s very disorienting/unpleasant when playing music from speakers in front of me when the bass has a clear sensation be flowing left to right across my head, etc.

I don’t think it’s expectation bias because I wasn’t even expecting it this last time, thinking that the previous experiences was due to the room. But in this (smaller) room it was even more obvious than other rooms.

Interesting.. How far are you from the sub?

 

[Purité Audio]

D&D offer a five year warranty when you register the product.
Keith

 

[napilopez]

In my experience you can absolutely hear where the sub is located - if you don't play the mains at the same time. If you, then the higher frequencies of the speakers will dominate our radar.
But I much prefer two subs over one because that sounds far better and removes the localization issue if only low content is produced and speakers aren't making much noise.

Reading through this thread I think it's obvious that the Neumann's are so heavily favored that objectivity is lost, so not sure what could be said to combat that.

Good point about playing the bass independently. Don't see where you're reading that heavy Neumann bias though. As far as I can tell all echopraxia said was that he likes his current Neumann's.

 

[HooStat]

reliability has been excellent

It doesn't help the case that the Darko review had problems with 2 units. Plus @napilopez had a problem with his as mentioned in his review. So, when when this happens in two reviews, it makes one worry a little bit about long-term reliability and service. Particularly from a small company with a relatively short history compared to other options.

To be clear, this isn't to say anything about quality of the service, the actual failure rate in real-life use, or the sound quality. Just pointing out why people might express reliability as an issue for the Dutch & Dutch 8C.

 

[echopraxia]

I am starting to lean towards the Genelec 8351B, which does seem to have several quality advantages over the 8361 (just read this paper).

The 8351B’s frequency response seems to actually extend bass response a little bit deeper (though likely negligible) than my Neumann KH310A, so I’m confident I would be happy with the bass extension.

The only question that remains is, what SPL can the Genelec 8351B reach in the bass frequencies? Neumann publishes SPL vs THD charts for every monitor product they sell. Does anyone know if any similar data exists for Genelec?

I am optimistic that it will be enough, since I rarely even push the Neumann‘s 8” woofer to its limits, but it would be reassuring to know the Genelec 8351B’s bass SPL limits similar to the measurements Neumann publishes.

 

[Absolute]

I'm sorry if I was too quick to judge you biased, might not have read the thread good enough. I picked up that you like bass capability and extension and that you sometimes like to turn up to around 90 dB.

Do you know what kind of room gain you're dealing with around the lowest frequencies you demand extension to?

While the Kii's played 20 hz in my room at around 110 dB including room gain, there's a world of difference in the authority department vs subs or JBL M2 when the volume goes up. Below 25 hz I felt the Kii's were flapping their ears of without any force behind.

8351 doesn't touch the Kii's for bass extension or authority, so you'll need subs. Or bigger speakers.

I like bigger speakers because the punch and snap that comes further up the range with bigger speakers is difficult to win back with subwoofers. Like the Kii with and without BXTs. Completely different animals at spl louder than normal.

Also, I can't recommend any speakers with all the electronics inside the cabinet due to the spectacular annoyance when it goes to hell. I had to send my Kiis back to Dutchland when they both went dead within a few weeks of eachother. Took awhile to get them back.
Another dude from a different forum have sent back his twice the last year. Yes, there's been a bad production batch that have been rectified, but speakers should normally last decades.

Small speakers with any bass extension will by laws of physics be insensitive and therefore demand alot of power. That power will mostly be converted to heat in both the amplifier and the voice coils, so inevitably they will fail, especially the ones without active cooling.
Thermal compression will of course be more of a problem in small insensitive speakers than in bigger and more sensitive ones, so that's another bonus for big.

Big active speakers with outboard amplification or at least changeable ones without having to ship the speakers anywhere is my tip. And to not fall in love with any one particular trait in any speaker because there's always compromises in the other end of that trait.

 

[aac]

I am starting to lean towards the Genelec 8351B, which does seem to have several quality advantages over the 8361 (just read this paper).

The 8351B’s frequency response seems to actually extend bass response a little bit deeper (though likely negligible) than my Neumann KH310A, so I’m confident I would be happy with the bass extension.

The only question that remains is, what SPL can the Genelec 8351B reach in the bass frequencies? Neumann publishes SPL vs THD charts for every monitor product they sell. Does anyone know if any similar data exists for Genelec?

I am optimistic that it will be enough, since I rarely even push the Neumann‘s 8” woofer to its limits, but it would be reassuring to know the Genelec 8351B’s bass SPL limits similar to the measurements Neumann publishes.

Like this?

https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/studiomonitor-genelec-8351a-im-test/

 

[pierre]

Genelec 8260 are excellent too and heavily discounted at the moment. They may be an option.
Kii‘s are very good too and small. I have a hard time to believe the can do 110db at 20hz. Nearfield they are excellent but they are not main monitors and don’t work well in a large room without the xbt.

 

[Absolute]

They can't, they'll do 93 dB extension limited anechoically. In my room there's about 20 dB room gain around that area due to standing wave and boundary reinforcement. In a big room, forget it.

 

[napilopez]

I'm sorry if I was too quick to judge you biased, might not have read the thread good enough. I picked up that you like bass capability and extension and that you sometimes like to turn up to around 90 dB.

Do you know what kind of room gain you're dealing with around the lowest frequencies you demand extension to?

While the Kii's played 20 hz in my room at around 110 dB including room gain, there's a world of difference in the authority department vs subs or JBL M2 when the volume goes up. Below 25 hz I felt the Kii's were flapping their ears of without any force behind.

8351 doesn't touch the Kii's for bass extension or authority, so you'll need subs. Or bigger speakers.

I like bigger speakers because the punch and snap that comes further up the range with bigger speakers is difficult to win back with subwoofers. Like the Kii with and without BXTs. Completely different animals at spl louder than normal.

Also, I can't recommend any speakers with all the electronics inside the cabinet due to the spectacular annoyance when it goes to hell. I had to send my Kiis back to Dutchland when they both went dead within a few weeks of eachother. Took awhile to get them back.
Another dude from a different forum have sent back his twice the last year. Yes, there's been a bad production batch that have been rectified, but speakers should normally last decades.

Small speakers with any bass extension will by laws of physics be insensitive and therefore demand alot of power. That power will mostly be converted to heat in both the amplifier and the voice coils, so inevitably they will fail, especially the ones without active cooling.
Thermal compression will of course be more of a problem in small insensitive speakers than in bigger and more sensitive ones, so that's another bonus for big.

Big active speakers with outboard amplification or at least changeable ones without having to ship the speakers anywhere is my tip. And to not fall in love with any one particular trait in any speaker because there's always compromises in the other end of that trait.

At this point the Genelecs seem like the best option given @echopraxia's reasonable concern about reliability. That said if something goes wrong on the 8c, I appreciate that you shouldn't have to send the speaker back. Replacing the board, which is the likeliest thing to go bad, is super easy without any instructions; it's kept in a separate part of the cabinet from the drivers and such and all you need is a screwdriver.

 

[Absolute]

At this point the Genelecs seem like the best option given @echopraxia's reasonable concern about reliability. That said if something goes wrong on the 8c, I appreciate that you shouldn't have to send the speaker back. Replacing the board, which is the likeliest thing to go bad, is super easy without any instructions; it's kept in a separate part of the cabinet from the drivers and such and all you need is a screwdriver.

In that case, the 8c would be ok for me.
Have somebody commented on the insane oversight of not including a remote for easy of use? The need to fiddle with the phone and an app disqualified the 8c's for me.

You need to be a special kind of nerd to think that it'll be wise to drop a remote and replace it with a phone.