Seeking recommendations: Best active speakers for $10k/pair? (Would also be offered for measurement.)

[echopraxia]

Audyssey had similar problems with integrating my 4 subs my 2 JBL 308ps. I was excited to test Audyssey, as I've only ever used YPAO(terrible) and Dirac(great). After finally running through all the measurements and designing my custom curve, I was excited to fire up some music and hear the results. My immediate reaction to what I heard was "HOLY S@$T! That's way too much bass". After measuring with REW, I ended up having to turn the subs down 12dB from where Audyssey set them. I wish I had saved the original REW measurements. Below is one of the -12 measurements I saved, and even that is probably still too much bass for most folks(I'm a bit of a bass head).

View attachment 78933

Imagine that, but with everything 100Hz and below boosted by 12dB.

Yeah, except in my case the sub was about 15db too quiet. Perhaps similar issues either way with the calibration software not anticipating this?

I've just moved the sub to what seems like the best location for this room, and it sounds much louder subjectively as calibration is running. Will report back soon on if this fixes the -15db issue.

 

[LTig]

It is indeed a 8" subwoofer with a 150W amplifier, useless unless used in nearfield. I simply think you didn't buy the right product as Genelec recommends the vastly bigger 7370A to go with those monitors.

I second that. My K&H O300D are 3-ways with an 8" woofer and when I looked for a matching sub the recommended one for the comparable Genelec 8050 was the 7070 (12" woofer). The 7070 however was too big and too expensive so I asked the Genelec support whether the 7060 (10") woofer) would be sufficient for my usage (stereo only, 50 squaremeter room, 3.8 m distance). They said it would be sufficient for stereo when I'm not going to play close to max SPL. And they were right. I've never experienced a problem with the sub and the mains (the O300D's logo blinks when clipping whoch I haven't seen ever) even when I play really loud. I have to say that I really like bass but I'm not a bass head, bass must be deep and dry but not boomy.

Using a 7350 in this situation would make no sense though.

 

[echopraxia]

Good news! This may have been just user error: I should have experimented with sub placement first before posting. Now with improved placement, the GLM software has actually decreased the overall SPL of the sub by 2db vs my mains, and this time this is the correct thing to do!

Look at the REW measurement now (psychoacoustic smoothing), this time with no need to boost the sub by 15db:

It's sounding quite good now and so far is going as loud as I need to be happy Just a reminder again that this is quite a tiny room.

I'm really surprised that this room's acoustics are that bad. 15db difference just from moving the sub around? Maybe the GLM software also selected the wrong phase before? I don't know. But so far this is a HUGE improvement.

 

[echopraxia]

I second that. My K&H O300D are 3-ways with an 8" woofer and when I looked for a matching sub the recommended one for the comparable Genelec 8050 was the 7070 (12" woofer). The 7070 however was too big and too expensive so I asked the Genelec support whether the 7060 (10") woofer) would be sufficient for my usage (stereo only, 50 squaremeter room, 3.8 m distance). They said it would be sufficient for stereo when I'm not going to play close to max SPL. And they were right. I've never experienced a problem with the sub and the mains (the O300D's logo blinks when clipping whoch I haven't seen ever) even when I play really loud. I have to say that I really like bass but I'm not a bass head, bass must be deep and dry but not boomy.

Using a 7350 in this situation would make no sense though.

I completely agree that this sub is undersized vs what the 8351B's are capable of, but I am in a very small room and don't want to add a big sub in here, and I know what is possible in this form factor due to having the Rythmik F12's.

With my user error above corrected (I did not realize placement would account for 15db difference, unless perhaps there was some other weird issue with GLM dealing with my sub's initial placement), I can now play bass heavy music (that which I've tested so far) at ear-splitting loud levels and the sub doesn't clip

This doesn't change the fact that Genelec subs are underwhelming for the price.[1] But it does mean I probably don't need to return this, as it seems to be living up to what I had hoped it would based on the specs. I don't think Genelec's measurements are unrealistic any more; likely I was just very unlucky somehow with the sub's initial placement.

[1] Edit: Actually, I shouldn't say this about price vs performance any more. As far as I can tell now, the sub is performing realistically to the specs Genelec quotes on their site. While the woofer size and amplifier power may seem low, the SPL these achieve does seem to be realistic to what Genelec rates them. Yes other subs outperform them for lower price, but not to the extreme degree that it had appeared earlier, which was due to my user error, not Genelecs! So please don't read this as a negative on Genelec's subs any more.

 

[LTig]

Good news! This may have been just user error: I should have experimented with sub placement first before posting. Now with improved placement, the GLM software has actually decreased the overall SPL of the sub by 2db vs my mains, and this time this is the correct thing to do! [..]
It's sounding quite good now and so far is going as loud as I need to be happy Just a reminder again that this is quite a tiny room.

I'm really surprised that this room's acoustics are that bad. 15db difference just from moving the sub around? Maybe the GLM software also selected the wrong phase before? I don't know. But so far this is a HUGE improvement.

Very good. It seems you first placed the sub in a position where the bass cancels due to reflections, or where modes have a null. Mine is positioned directly at the wall, behind the left speaker. LP is in the middle of the room - with room EQ it sounds very good, but when I go the back wall bass is stronger.

 

[HooStat]

It looks like it is pushing 95db? That seems more than adequate (for me) -- good to know that their smallest sub actually works ok.

 

[LTig]

[..]
This doesn't change the fact that Genelec subs are underwhelming for the price.

Yes and no. They have comparably low power amps. According to Genelec support they compensate for this by using a comparably bigger internal volume (metal spiral housing) and a very large port. And you get a 6 channel bass management/crossover (7060B) and/or GLM (7350).

 

[echopraxia]

It looks like it is pushing 95db? That seems more than adequate (for me) -- good to know that their smallest sub actually works ok.

Yes and I'm not even close to maxing it out in that test. I'm quite happy now so far, as I'm testing out bass heavy songs and can't get it to clip without pushing to levels I'd need hearing protection for.

Do keep in mind that this is a small room with a lot of room gain at lower frequencies, when speakers are placed correctly (as you can now see vs before), so this likely won't apply to larger rooms.

This room has pretty terrible acoustics as it's almost square in size, with some asymmetries. The terrible acoustics is shown here where my initial placement along the left wall ended up in such a huge bass null which I think may have confused the GLM software into giving up and not adjusting levels and phase correctly.

I wish I had saved the earlier REW files, but distortion also was extremely high in the bass frequencies before. Now, it looks reasonably low all the way down to 20hz.

 

[echopraxia]

Yes and no. They have comparably low power amps. According to Genelec support they compensate for this by using a comparably bigger internal volume (metal spiral housing) and a very large port. And you get a 6 channel bass management/crossover (7060B) and/or GLM (7350).

Yeah that's true. Knowing now that the SPL specs Genelec advertises is realistic and not inflated, these do not seem so bad any more when considering these features. Of course other brands like Rythmik still outperform them by a good margin but not nearly as extreme as before -- to the point that we can reasonably justify them based on their other features now.

I will edit my posts on this as well so nobody reading them out of context is confused.

 

[mkt]

Maybe the moral of the story is that room modes are hard to beat.

 

[echopraxia]

A few things I really like about the Genelec sub that may go unnoticed from just the specs:

• It's very easy to move around, due to the "handle" bars on the top.
• The connectors being on the side rather than the back makes it easy to connect, but also possible to push the sub back completely flush with the wall if you want to. Due to the inset position of the connectors, you can push flush to the wall on any side of the sub.
• It's extremely solidly build and protected. Unlike many subwoofers, the driver is not just covered with a thin plastic grill or fabric, but strong metal bars completely covering every inch of it (without more than a few millimeters gap anywhere). This means you can literally kick it if you want, and nothing will happen. It's that well protected. This means I can put it under my desk and not worry about accidentally sticking my foot into the driver.
• Of course there is also the built-in DSP and multichannel processing.

I can't say I know of any other subwoofer you can get all these features from at this price. Overall I am once again very happy with a Genelec product

Again, my initial disappointment was due to my mistake only, combined with bad luck (and severe bass modes in this room). Once placed properly, the sub's SPL capabilities does not disappoint and performs just as I had hoped from what I knew of the specs.

 

[richard12511]

I completely agree that this sub is undersized vs what the 8351B's are capable of, but I am in a very small room and don't want to add a big sub in here, and I know what is possible in this form factor due to having the Rythmik F12's.

With my user error above corrected (I did not realize placement would account for 15db difference, unless perhaps there was some other weird issue with GLM dealing with my sub's initial placement), I can now play bass heavy music (that which I've tested so far) at ear-splitting loud levels and the sub doesn't clip

This doesn't change the fact that Genelec subs are underwhelming for the price.[1] But it does mean I probably don't need to return this, as it seems to be living up to what I had hoped it would based on the specs. I don't think Genelec's measurements are unrealistic any more; likely I was just very unlucky somehow with the sub's initial placement.

[1] Edit: Actually, I shouldn't say this about price vs performance any more. As far as I can tell now, the sub is performing realistically to the specs Genelec quotes on their site. While the woofer size and amplifier power may seem low, the SPL these achieve does seem to be realistic to what Genelec rates them. Yes other subs outperform them for lower price, but not to the extreme degree that it had appeared earlier, which was due to my user error, not Genelecs! So please don't read this as a negative on Genelec's subs any more.

Glad you got it figured out, and glad GLM worked out for you.

Makes me want to mess with my Audyssey setup again to see if I can find a similar fix.

 

[richard12511]

A few things I really like about the Genelec sub that may go unnoticed from just the specs:

• It's very easy to move around, due to the "handle" bars on the top.
• The connectors being on the side rather than the back makes it easy to connect, but also possible to push the sub back completely flush with the wall if you want to. Due to the inset position of the connectors, you can push flush to the wall on any side of the sub.
• It's extremely solidly build and protected. Unlike many subwoofers, the driver is not just covered with a thin plastic grill or fabric, but strong metal bars completely covering every inch of it (without more than a few millimeters gap anywhere). This means you can literally kick it if you want, and nothing will happen. It's that well protected. This means I can put it under my desk and not worry about accidentally sticking my foot into the driver.
• Of course there is also the built-in DSP and multichannel processing.

I can't say I know of any other subwoofer you can get all these features from at this price. Overall I am once again very happy with a Genelec product

Again, my initial disappointment was due to my mistake only, combined with bad luck (and severe bass modes in this room). Once placed properly, the sub's SPL capabilities does not disappoint and performs just as I had hoped from what I knew of the specs.

I had a similar reaction when I got my JBL EON615 in for testing. Nice handle bars on top for easy carrying, and also quite kickable.

 

[q3cpma]

Good news! This may have been just user error: I should have experimented with sub placement first before posting. Now with improved placement, the GLM software has actually decreased the overall SPL of the sub by 2db vs my mains, and this time this is the correct thing to do!

Look at the REW measurement now (psychoacoustic smoothing), this time with no need to boost the sub by 15db:

View attachment 78937

It's sounding quite good now and so far is going as loud as I need to be happy Just a reminder again that this is quite a tiny room.

I'm really surprised that this room's acoustics are that bad. 15db difference just from moving the sub around? Maybe the GLM software also selected the wrong phase before? I don't know. But so far this is a HUGE improvement.

Wew, you made my fanboy heart hurt a bit. Good news, but I do think that GLM should notify you when it detects such a cancellation.

 

[richard12511]

Good news! This may have been just user error: I should have experimented with sub placement first before posting. Now with improved placement, the GLM software has actually decreased the overall SPL of the sub by 2db vs my mains, and this time this is the correct thing to do!

Look at the REW measurement now (psychoacoustic smoothing), this time with no need to boost the sub by 15db:

View attachment 78937

It's sounding quite good now and so far is going as loud as I need to be happy Just a reminder again that this is quite a tiny room.

I'm really surprised that this room's acoustics are that bad. 15db difference just from moving the sub around? Maybe the GLM software also selected the wrong phase before? I don't know. But so far this is a HUGE improvement.

So, you figuring out your issue with GLM inspired me to fire up REW/Audyssey again today to see if I could figure out my issue too. I think I figured it out!

Turns out my problem was a setting called "DynamicEQ" that's on by default. This is my first experience with Audyssey, so I had no idea it even existed. It warns you about it being on during the initial setup, but I guess I wasn't paying close enough attention(user error). Reading about it online, I think it attempts to adjust bass and treble based on Fletcher-Munson curves, and it seems it was jacking up the bass.

To test it, I got rid of the -12dB sub level I had set manually(present in the graph I posted earlier), and I remeasured with the default post Audyssey settings. Then I turned DynamicEQ off and measured again. Below is a measurement(MMM) to show the difference. Green is with DynamicEQ on, and blue is with DynamicEQ off.

It even tamed some of that treble tilt I complained about in the JBL 308p thread. This is with the JBL in the -2 treble setting. I might still turn the bass down a bit from here, but I for sure no longer need the huge -12dB I was using before. Much prettier.

Now, what I don't understand is why it sounds much better with DynamicEQ off. Theoretically, the green curve should sound better at low volumes, right?(ie DEQ is doing its job to provide an equal loudness contour). It doesn't, though, at all. It sounds noticeably better with DEQ off. Why though? Maybe I hear bass better than average? Or maybe it's just poorly implemented? I honestly don't hear a huge difference(maybe placebo) with the treble, but the bass difference is quite audible.

One thing I still hate about Audyssey is that it doesn't allow me to EQ the subs at all(it does, but it changes nothing). I could easily tame that peak if it let me EQ the bass.

 

[Sancus]

Now, what I don't understand is why it sounds much better with DynamicEQ off. Theoretically, the green curve should sound better at low volumes, right?(ie DEQ is doing its job to provide an equal loudness contour). It doesn't, though, at all. It sounds noticeably better with DEQ off. Why though? Maybe I hear bass better than average? Or maybe it's just poorly implemented? I honestly don't hear a huge difference(maybe placebo) with the treble, but the bass difference is quite audible.

DynamicEQ isn't magic, it's referenced to standard film mix levels(though even those vary) but if you are listening to content that doesn't follow that, it may need adjustment(or you can just turn it off). That's why you can set a reference level offset of -5, -10 or -15, with the intention of lower levels for more compressed content that has a higher average level.

I generally prefer it on and adjusted to -10 for music.

 

[richard12511]

DynamicEQ isn't magic, it's referenced to standard film mix levels(though even those vary) but if you are listening to content that doesn't follow that, it may need adjustment(or you can just turn it off). That's why you can set a reference level offset of -5, -10 or -15, with the intention of lower levels for more compressed content that has a higher average level.

I generally prefer it on and adjusted to -10 for music.

I'll try that. It's set on 0 right now.

 

[q3cpma]

By the way, any news concerning their measurement by our host? Or are you waiting for your KH310 to be repaired before sending it?

 

[echopraxia]

By the way, any news concerning their measurement by our host? Or are you waiting for your KH310 to be repaired before sending it?

The KH310 rattle was another case of user error, and not the KH310 at all. I discovered this when preparing to send them back, trying in another room and finding the issue disappeared. It turned out a particular frequency was rattling a poster frame I had on the wall. Removing the poster fixed the rattle, and also I confirmed the KH310s have no hidden distortion or anomalies with REW measurements.

Regarding ASR measurement, unfortunately that window has passed as I have sold the KH310s to another forum member here (not local though unfortunately, and they’re fairly expensive to ship). I was never contacted about measuring them from Amir aside from a PM from him many months ago (I forget when) that he’ll contact me when he’s ready to test some of my speakers.

I haven’t really pushed for any of my speakers to be measured not because I don’t want them measured (I’m still happy to offer them for this purpose), but because I am quite sure Amir has a huge backlog of speakers to test, and I have no desire to try to influence the order of testing Amir has presumably good reason to have planned.

 

[turbotuff]

Try Meyer monitors such as the HD-1.