Seeking recommendations: Best active speakers for $10k/pair? (Would also be offered for measurement.)

[Frank Dernie]

Old news. I was reading this while listening to my Etymotic ER-4S.
At first i wasnt sure what to listen to. But then it hit me and I could heat the thump. Also then I heard the guy actually counting "one, two" several times before saying "four" and the the band kicking in.
These are really cool details.

Me too, Verum 1 headphones with Macbook Pro and Qobuz, haven't listened for it on speakers.

 

[echopraxia]

Edit: All of this was likely due to my user error (bad subwoofer placement initially in a really bad null zone), which perhaps confused GLM to make things worse (?). Either way, it's now performing exactly as I had hoped it would from the specs, which means I am happy As far as I can tell now, the sub is performing realistically to the SPL specs Genelec quotes on their site. Yes, other subs outperform them for lower price, but not to the extreme degree that it seemed earlier, which was my fault for placing them in a bass null, not Genelec's fault! So please don't read this as a negative on Genelec's subs any more.

Initial impression on Genelec subs: I ordered a Genelec 7350A to add to my very small room to fill in the lower octave below my 8351B’s.

Unfortunately, for $1260 this subwoofer is very disappointing and so is Genelec’s calibration software.

1) Genelec’s setup process does not appear to calibrate level of the subwoofer vs speakers. I had to use REW to do this manually, and ended up having to set a -15db level on both the main speakers for the subwoofer to measure flat with them.

Note also that this is with a 50hz crossover, so the 8351B’s are already handling as much of the bass as the software allows me. Using a 80hz crossover was extremely distracting since just like any subwoofer I’ve ever owned in any room I’ve ever tried this, the subwoofer is extremely obviously localizable with an 80hz crossover due to the slope being gradual leaving plenty of content up around 200hz.

2) Even in this small room, the subwoofer clips really early. This subwoofer just cannot do “loud”. I realize it’s just an 8” ported subwoofer, but seeing the SPL measurements on Genelec’s website, I expected more. It looks like they measure at a rather high frequency for a sub. I also hear a lot of port noise and distortion, probably because it’s being pushed near its limit.

In fact, I suspect that my 8351B’s actually do bass better than this 7350A sub does.

For $1260, this subwoofer doesn’t even come close to touching the power or low distortion of my lower priced Rythmik F12. I didn’t really think it would compete, but I didn’t think it would run into headroom issues so quickly in the small room I have it in.

I‘d even be willing to pay a premium for Genelec’s larger more powerful sub if I could justify it with software or compactness. But I find the software quite lacking vs e.g. miniDSP SHD’s Dirac Live. And, this sub is about the same size as the Rythmik F12 which completely dominates it in every way (power, distortion, deep bass extension, price).

Don’t get me wrong: Genelec makes fantastic speakers. Even for the high price, I don’t know if much beats the 8351B’s. But when it comes to subwoofers, I am very disappointed.

 

[q3cpma]

Update on Genelec subs: I ordered a Genelec 7350A to add to my very small room to fill in the lower octave below my 8351B’s.

Unfortunately, for $1260 this subwoofer is very disappointing and so is Genelec’s calibration software.

1) Genelec’s setup process does not appear to calibrate level of the subwoofer vs speakers. I had to use REW to do this manually, and ended up having to set a -15db level on both the main speakers for the subwoofer to measure flat with them.

Note also that this is with a 50hz crossover, so the 8351B’s are already handling as much of the bass as the software allows me. Using a 80hz crossover was extremely distracting since just like any subwoofer I’ve ever owned in any room I’ve ever tried this, the subwoofer is extremely obviously localizable with an 80hz crossover due to the slope being gradual leaving plenty of content up around 200hz.

2) Even in this small room, the subwoofer clips really early. This subwoofer just cannot do “loud”. I realize it’s just an 8” ported subwoofer, but seeing the SPL measurements on Genelec’s website, I expected more. It looks like they measure at a rather high frequency for a sub. I also hear a lot of port noise and distortion, probably because it’s being pushed near its limit.

In fact, I suspect that my 8351B’s actually do bass better than this 7350A sub does.

For $1260, this subwoofer doesn’t even come close to touching the power or low distortion of my similarly priced Rythmik F12. I didn’t really think it would compete, but I didn’t think it would run into headroom issues so quickly in the small room I have it in.

Genelec makes fantastic speakers — even for the high price, I don’t know if much beats the 8351B’s. But when it comes to subwoofers, I am very disappointed.

It is indeed a 8" subwoofer with a 150W amplifier, useless unless used in nearfield. I simply think you didn't buy the right product as Genelec recommends the vastly bigger 7370A to go with those monitors. Really surprised about your GLM finding, though, doesn't sound like something that's supposed to be.
But yeah, their subwoofers are grossly overpriced, which is sad since their bigger models are really good.

 

[Sancus]

Thanks for testing that out. That is what I had feared about the Genelec subs. Seems like, if you want to use subs with Genelec, you are better off using third party subs and either Multi-Sub Optimizer+minidsp or some electronics with Dirac Bass Management(or Trinnov if you can afford it, I suppose).

 

[beefkabob]

Update on Genelec subs: I ordered a Genelec 7350A to add to my very small room to fill in the lower octave below my 8351B’s.

Unfortunately, for $1260 this subwoofer is very disappointing and so is Genelec’s calibration software.

1) Genelec’s setup process does not appear to calibrate level of the subwoofer vs speakers. I had to use REW to do this manually, and ended up having to set a -15db level on both the main speakers for the subwoofer to measure flat with them.

Note also that this is with a 50hz crossover, so the 8351B’s are already handling as much of the bass as the software allows me. Using a 80hz crossover was extremely distracting since just like any subwoofer I’ve ever owned in any room I’ve ever tried this, the subwoofer is extremely obviously localizable with an 80hz crossover due to the slope being gradual leaving plenty of content up around 200hz.

2) Even in this small room, the subwoofer clips really early. This subwoofer just cannot do “loud”. I realize it’s just an 8” ported subwoofer, but seeing the SPL measurements on Genelec’s website, I expected more. It looks like they measure at a rather high frequency for a sub. I also hear a lot of port noise and distortion, probably because it’s being pushed near its limit.

In fact, I suspect that my 8351B’s actually do bass better than this 7350A sub does.

For $1260, this subwoofer doesn’t even come close to touching the power or low distortion of my lower priced Rythmik F12. I didn’t really think it would compete, but I didn’t think it would run into headroom issues so quickly in the small room I have it in.

I‘d even be willing to pay a premium for Genelec’s larger more powerful sub if I could justify it with software or compactness. But I find the software quite lacking vs e.g. miniDSP SHD’s Dirac Live. And, this sub is about the same size as the Rythmik F12 which completely dominates it in every way (power, distortion, deep bass extension, price).

Don’t get me wrong: Genelec makes fantastic speakers. Even for the high price, I don’t know if much beats the 8351B’s. But when it comes to subwoofers, I am very disappointed.

You got an 8" sub to go with speakers that have two 8.625" woofers already. This does not make sense to me.

 

[echopraxia]

Edit: All of this was likely due to my user error (bad subwoofer placement initially in a really bad null zone), which perhaps confused GLM to make things worse (?). Either way, it's now performing exactly as I had hoped it would from the specs, which means I am happy As far as I can tell now, the sub is performing realistically to the SPL specs Genelec quotes on their site. Yes, other subs outperform them for lower price, but not to the extreme degree that it seemed earlier, which was my fault for placing them in a bass null, not Genelec's fault! So please don't read this as a negative on Genelec's subs any more.

It is indeed a 8" subwoofer with a 150W amplifier, useless unless used in nearfield. I simply think you didn't buy the right product as Genelec recommends the vastly bigger 7370A to go with those monitors. Really surprised about your GLM finding, though, doesn't sound like something that's supposed to be.
But yeah, their subwoofers are grossly overprice, which is sad since their bigger models are really good.

Yeah I have no doubt their larger subs are capable, but note a few things:

1. This is a very small room. The subwoofer sits about 3 feet away from me against the wall to my left. I think that counts as near field.

2. The subwoofer is about the same size and slightly higher price than my Rythmik F12. And there are many many other subwoofer brands out there of the same price and size, all of which absolutely won’t have headroom issues in this room.

To compete with my Rythmik F12 I would have to buy $3000 - $5000 worth of subwoofer from Genelec, and consume way more space than an equally capable system from Rythmik or even SVS (which is IMO far inferior to Rythmik from my experience) and many other brands.

In terms of software, that is the only reason I tried Genelec brand here. So yeah it’s quite disappointing.

For the price and size of the next level up sub from Genelec, I could buy the flagship subwoofer from Rythmik AND a miniDSP SHD Studio, which will provide a sound and software experience vastly superior to Genelec’s offering in every way.

 

[Sancus]

It is indeed a 8" subwoofer with a 150W amplifier, useless unless used in nearfield. I simply think you didn't buy the right product as Genelec recommends the vastly bigger 7370A to go with those monitors. Really surprised about your GLM finding, though, doesn't sound like something that's supposed to be.
But yeah, their subwoofers are grossly overpriced, which is sad since their bigger models are really good.

I agree the 7350A obviously sucks, but I feel like the 7360A and 7370A are still very expensive for what you get in terms of output, and the poor integration from GLM is particularly disappointing from Genelec. Perhaps the upcoming GLM 4.0 software will improve it.

Maybe my expectations are too high, but I really feel like a company like Genelec should be at the forefront of room correction and doing things like top notch, perfect multiple sub integration already, especially with the prices they put on their subs.

 

[echopraxia]

Edit: All of this was likely due to my user error (bad subwoofer placement initially in a really bad null zone), which perhaps confused GLM to make things worse (?). Either way, it's now performing exactly as I had hoped it would from the specs, which means I am happy As far as I can tell now, the sub is performing realistically to the SPL specs Genelec quotes on their site. Yes, other subs outperform them for lower price, but not to the extreme degree that it seemed earlier, which was my fault for placing them in a bass null, not Genelec's fault! So please don't read this as a negative on Genelec's subs any more.

You got an 8" sub to go with speakers that have two 8.625" woofers already. This does not make sense to me.

It’s a very small room with a lot of room gain. I agree with you though except I was purchasing on a budget constrained by this simple logic: The Genelec subwoofer just one step up (7360A) costs as much as Rythmik’s flagship sub (G25HP) with dual opposing 15” drivers.

As much as I might want to keep an all-Genelec system, I simply cannot justify that value proposition of the Genelec 7360A vs Rythmik G25HP.

I still wanted to give Genelec a try though, since this is quite a small room AND given Genelec’s SPL specs, I thought there is a chance it would work.

I realize now their SPL specs for subs are inflated and do not represent the SPL capable at the deepest audible frequencies like Rythmik publishes.

TLDR: Genelec main speakers are fantastic, even for the price. Not so much their subs, though. Rythmik subs are fantastic for the price, and probably are nearly as good as it gets for their size and bass extension. I am a huge fan of Genelec mains and Rythmik subs. I cannot say the same of Genelec’s subs, even at any price (e.g. even if we consider just their size for the performance).

 

[HooStat]

This will definitely solve your problem, but you might not have any room in your room. https://www.genelec.com/w371a

 

[HooStat]

BTW, thanks for posting this. I was very surprised that the small sub couldn't just fill in the bottom given the price and size and software.

 

[steve59]

If you want full range there's a pair of legacy dsp 8000's on AG for $10K, the dsp7200se for the same price might be better.

 

[echopraxia]

Edit: All of this was likely due to my user error (bad subwoofer placement initially in a really bad null zone), which perhaps confused GLM to make things worse (?). Either way, it's now performing exactly as I had hoped it would from the specs, which means I am happy As far as I can tell now, the sub is performing realistically to the SPL specs Genelec quotes on their site. Yes, other subs outperform them for lower price, but not to the extreme degree that it seemed earlier, which was my fault for placing them in a bass null, not Genelec's fault! So please don't read this as a negative on Genelec's subs any more.

BTW, thanks for posting this. I was very surprised that the small sub couldn't just fill in the bottom given the price and size and software.

I have a feeling the 7350A is tuned for a frequency much higher than 22hz. Their website should have been much more transparent like Neumann is about SPL capability vs frequency IMO.

(No harm done to me since I purchased from Sweetwater with excellent customer service and return policy.)

That said, I will try to make it work with more experimentation with positioning and also will try cutting off frequencies below 30hz to see it that helps the headroom issues (but in that case I might as well just run my 8351B’s without a sub).

I am still a Genelec fan of course, as their mains are truly exceptional. But it’s quite clear to me now that their subwoofer game has fallen behind the competition by a lot. And I mean that both in terms of software and hardware.

 

[echopraxia]

If you want full range there's a pair of legacy dsp 8000's on AG for $10K, the dsp7200se for the same price might be better.

Why would I ever pay that much for that vs e.g. four Rythmik GP25HP’s? Just one G25HP would be overkill for most medium sized rooms, let alone a small one like this

 

[richard12511]

Update on Genelec subs: I ordered a Genelec 7350A to add to my very small room to fill in the lower octave below my 8351B’s.

Unfortunately, for $1260 this subwoofer is very disappointing and so is Genelec’s calibration software.

1) Genelec’s setup process does not appear to calibrate level of the subwoofer vs speakers. I had to use REW to do this manually, and ended up having to set a -15db level on both the main speakers for the subwoofer to measure flat with them.

Note also that this is with a 50hz crossover, so the 8351B’s are already handling as much of the bass as the software allows me. Using a 80hz crossover was extremely distracting since just like any subwoofer I’ve ever owned in any room I’ve ever tried this, the subwoofer is extremely obviously localizable with an 80hz crossover due to the slope being gradual leaving plenty of content up around 200hz.

2) Even in this small room, the subwoofer clips really early. This subwoofer just cannot do “loud”. I realize it’s just an 8” ported subwoofer, but seeing the SPL measurements on Genelec’s website, I expected more. It looks like they measure at a rather high frequency for a sub. I also hear a lot of port noise and distortion, probably because it’s being pushed near its limit.

In fact, I suspect that my 8351B’s actually do bass better than this 7350A sub does.

For $1260, this subwoofer doesn’t even come close to touching the power or low distortion of my lower priced Rythmik F12. I didn’t really think it would compete, but I didn’t think it would run into headroom issues so quickly in the small room I have it in.

I‘d even be willing to pay a premium for Genelec’s larger more powerful sub if I could justify it with software or compactness. But I find the software quite lacking vs e.g. miniDSP SHD’s Dirac Live. And, this sub is about the same size as the Rythmik F12 which completely dominates it in every way (power, distortion, deep bass extension, price).

Don’t get me wrong: Genelec makes fantastic speakers. Even for the high price, I don’t know if much beats the 8351B’s. But when it comes to subwoofers, I am very disappointed.

I don't think you can really compare Genelec subs to the best subwoofer brands from a price/performance perspective. There are several other factors at play. They're targeted more towards folks in studio environments who need the studio connections that subs like Rythmik don't support. They're also targeted towards folks who just want the "matching" sub and the ability to buy everything from one place. They can charge more because of that. It's the same with other big speaker manufacturers like Revel, KEF, Paradigm, Klipsch, etc. None of those companies offer price competitive subs to Rythmik, PSA, or JTR, but people are willing to pay that "matching" premium. I've also heard(don't know for sure) that most of the best ID brands don't ship to Europe(which is the largest market).

Also, I don't think the 7350A is really meant to pair with the 8351b, so it doesn't surprise me that it struggles to keep up. The 8351b is kinda like their flagship "non-huge" speaker, and I think is supposed to pair with the W371A. Correct me if I'm wrong. I bet the W371A would do much better, though it's still not price competitive. If that's all your after, there are single $3,500 subs that would best dual W371As($18,000).

Your comments on GLM surprise me. I only know 2 people that have it, but I've heard great things. From what I've heard, it's basically as good or at least almost as good as Dirac in terms of sound quality, and much easier to use(and much harder to mess up). I have Dirac, and I've found it to be quite buggy at times during the measurement process, and one of my laptops it just straight up doesn't work.

 

[echopraxia]

Edit: All of this was likely due to my user error (bad subwoofer placement initially in a really bad null zone), which perhaps confused GLM to make things worse (?). Either way, it's now performing exactly as I had hoped it would from the specs, which means I am happy As far as I can tell now, the sub is performing realistically to the SPL specs Genelec quotes on their site. Yes, other subs outperform them for lower price, but not to the extreme degree that it seemed earlier, which was my fault for placing them in a bass null, not Genelec's fault! So please don't read this as a negative on Genelec's subs any more.

I don't think you can really compare Genelec subs to the best subwoofer brands from a price/performance perspective. There are several other factors at play. They're targeted more towards folks in studio environments who need the studio connections that subs like Rythmik don't support. They're also targeted towards folks who just want the "matching" sub and the ability to buy everything from one place. They can charge more because of that. It's the same with other big speaker manufacturers like Revel, KEF, Paradigm, Klipsch, etc. None of those companies offer price competitive subs to Rythmik, PSA, or JTR, but people are willing to pay that "matching" premium. I've also heard(don't know for sure) that most of the best ID brands don't ship to Europe(which is the largest market).

Also, I don't think the 7350A is really meant to pair with the 8351b, so it doesn't surprise me that it struggles to keep up. The 8351b is kinda like their flagship "non-huge" speaker, and I think is supposed to pair with the W371A. Correct me if I'm wrong. I bet the W371A would do much better, though it's still not price competitive. If that's all your after, there are single $3,500 subs that would best dual W371As($18,000).

Your comments on GLM surprise me. I only know 2 people that have it, but I've heard great things. From what I've heard, it's basically as good or at least almost as good as Dirac in terms of sound quality, and much easier to use(and much harder to mess up). I have Dirac, and I've found it to be quite buggy at times during the measurement process, and one of my laptops it just straight up doesn't work.

Yeah I have no doubt the W371A would not disappoint, or their larger subs for that matter.

Like I say, I’d even be willing to exchange the 7350A for a 7360A or 7370A despite the price (the place I bought from encourages returns and exchanges for any reason), if only two things were true:

(1) If the GLM software worked seamlessly and doesn’t require me to use REW to fix its mistakes. I’ve tried it about 4 times now and in every case it sets the sub level to -0db and the mains to -2db or so, which is WAY off target.

(2) If the Genelec subs were competitive in size with what Rythmik offers for similar audio performance.

Even at 2x the cost, I’d probably still be happy to go with Genelec it they satisfied #1 and #2 but sadly they do not.

Again, I’m still a Genelec fan overall. I still trust that they make quality products. But I just don’t think I can get past the degree to which their subs are technically inferior vs alternates out there now today.

 

[HooStat]

(1) If the GLM software worked seamlessly and doesn’t require me to use REW to fix its mistakes. I’ve tried it about 4 times now and in every case it sets the sub level to -0db and the mains to -2db or so, which is WAY off target.

Do you think this could be an issue where the software can't find a solution because of the mismatch between the sub and the speakers? It seems that this isn't the case, but I was just hoping GLM would be better than what you are describing.

 

[steve59]

Why would I ever pay that much for that vs e.g. four Rythmik GP25HP’s? Just one G25HP would be overkill for most medium sized rooms, let alone a small one like this

Sorry, I read the first post and offered a suggestion based my experience. I have no idea the size of your room. Your sig says salon 2 and a couple subs, I had the salon 2's sold them and used the money for the dsp8000's no subs. We all like what we like.

 

[echopraxia]

Sorry, I read the first post and offered a suggestion based my experience. I have no idea the size of your room. Your sig says salon 2 and a couple subs, I had the salon 2's sold them and used the money for the dsp8000's no subs. We all like what we like.

No worries, I appreciate the suggestion anyways! This is a fairly small room I have the 8351B's in, whereas the Salon2's go in my larger room.

Some day I do want to hear some big Genelecs for a big room, but for now I'm quite happy with the Salon2's for the big room duty

 

[echopraxia]

Edit: All of this was likely due to my user error (bad subwoofer placement initially in a really bad null zone), which perhaps confused GLM to make things worse (?). Either way, it's now performing exactly as I had hoped it would from the specs, which means I am happy As far as I can tell now, the sub is performing realistically to the SPL specs Genelec quotes on their site. Yes, other subs outperform them for lower price, but not to the extreme degree that it seemed earlier, which was my fault for placing them in a bass null, not Genelec's fault! So please don't read this as a negative on Genelec's subs any more.

Do you think this could be an issue where the software can't find a solution because of the mismatch between the sub and the speakers? It seems that this isn't the case, but I was just hoping GLM would be better than what you are describing.

I can only suspect that the software didn't anticipate such a big difference being necessary between sub and mains (-15db!) and gave up somewhere in the calibration process and reverted to the default level adjustments meant for just mains alone, leaving the sub at 0db.

A 15db SPL difference seems like way more than I would have expected, given this room's small size (10x12 feet or so, I don't remember the measurements exactly).

I'm going to try experimenting with sub placement and hope I can find a better position with more room gain.

As it is now, the 7350A (about 1.5 meters away from me in this small room) starts clipping when I reach 95db overall SPL when playing this acoustic song. There are way more bass heavy songs that clip way earlier.

For reference, Genelec rates the 7350A as good up to 104db, which I know would be enough for me if this SPL spec was realistic.

And here is my in-room measurement from REW using -15db on the 8351B's (note that this was just a 'quick and dirty' calibration, I have not spent much time perfecting):

 

[richard12511]

(1) If the GLM software worked seamlessly and doesn’t require me to use REW to fix its mistakes. I’ve tried it about 4 times now and in every case it sets the sub level to -0db and the mains to -2db or so, which is WAY off target.

Audyssey had similar problems with integrating my 4 subs my 2 JBL 308ps. I was excited to test Audyssey, as I've only ever used YPAO(terrible) and Dirac(great). After finally running through all the measurements and designing my custom curve, I was excited to fire up some music and hear the results. My immediate reaction to what I heard was "HOLY S@$T! That's way too much bass". After measuring with REW, I ended up having to turn the subs down 12dB from where Audyssey set them. I wish I had saved the original REW measurements. Below is one of the -12 measurements I saved, and even that is probably still too much bass for most folks(I'm a bit of a bass head).

Imagine that, but with everything 100Hz and below boosted by 12dB.