Seek an advice from expert for improvement of bass

[sunao]

Hello ,

I am seeking an advice from people here for how I could *upgrade* my setup.

current setup

- amplifier: Rotel A11
- speaker: Revel Performa3 M105 with Revel stands

my goal

- I feel a bass sound is weak. I feel more Contrabass, yet I shall understand this is because I am using bookshelf speakers
- I need to move in/out often - once a few years. Therefore I cannot buy good floor standing speakers. look for another alternatives.

I can think of a couple of options (I can budget about 1K to 3K USD) :

1. Buy a subwoofer.
2. Trade in speakers and buy something else: I listened KEF R3 and Fyne Audio F500SP at local. Both sounds nice to me, but I might feel a lack of bass later (they are bookshelves).
3. Trade in speakers and amplifier , then buy active speakers. I never listen active system before though.
4. Buy miniDSP, and try to optimize the sound for the room with my current equipments...guess a financially affordable choice, the most

Now, in a season I need to move in the next location within a week. I have packed up my equipments. I realized now the good time to consider about the upgrade.
Any suggestions and opinions are welcome \(^^)/

 

[solderdude]

At another location the speakers may sound different so would recommend to have a listen first and then have a look again.

 

[sigbergaudio]

It's difficult to know exactly why you are perceiving your bass to be weak, and even what you mean by that. Is it lacking in power when you turn it up, or simply too little bass alltogether?

A subwoofer will likely help, but may end you up in the other end of the scale, too much bass or uneven / uncontrollable bass. You could likely benefit from some kind of DSP solution. Some active speakers may have built-in options that may be of use to help tame the bass. Due to the moving often, some small speakers and a small sub may be the best option. Kef LS50 wireless + sub perhaps? Something along those lines, assuming you don't need to play really loud.

 

[Sokel]

The description of the OP tells me that he probably doesn't mean "bass" in general but the actual organ in classical music.
I would say to wait until he gets to the new room and then first buy a mic and make some basic measurements with REW.

 

[alex-z]

Subwoofer + acoustic treatment + DSP. No matter how good your speakers are, bass performance is heavily influenced by your room so you need a multi-faceted approach to fix.

Even better if you can run two subwoofers, because then you can spread them out, smoothing the frequency response at your listening position, creating a broader sweet spot that requires less EQ.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Until OP tells us what sound level he listens at and at what distance, how can we advice him upon either subwoofer / DSP or room correction?

It could very well be that he doesn't listen loud and a Dirac Live EQ'ed to taste (extra bass with room correction because of the frequent moving) is enough.

 

[Willem]

Wait until after the move, then buy a UMIK-1 measurement microphone and measure in-room response with REW. Try to decide if you have too little bass (should be visible in the measurements), or very uneven response. In both cases it is probably best to add two small subwoofers and equalize with Multi Sub Otimizer/miniDSP 2x4HD (sadly this is hard work). Alternatively, skip the UMIK-1 and equalize the subs with an Antimode 8033 or the whole system with an Antimode X2 (both are dead easy).

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Wait until after the move, then buy a UMIK-1 measurement microphone and measure in-room response with REW. Try to decide if you have too little bass (should be visible in the measurements), or very uneven response. In both cases it is probably best to add two small subwoofers and equalize with Multi Sub Otimizer/miniDSP 2x4HD (sadly this is hard work). Alternatively, skip the UMIK-1 and equalize the subs with an Antimode 8033 or the whole system with an Antimode X2 (both are dead easy).

How do you know? Maybe he listens at 74 dB at 1.5 m. and all he has to do is a bit of EQ..

 

[Willem]

Try to decide if you have too little bass (should be visible in the measurements), or very uneven response. In both cases it is probably

Indeed, measure first. And then probably

 

[bodhi]

What am I missing here? OP has small speakers, they don't have a lot of bass, -3dB at 60Hz.

He can measure, EQ and move the speakers to corners in a broom closet but they are still small speakers.

 

[Willem]

Quite

 

[sunao]

Thanks all. Like us, people in ASR, "measure 1st, then learn from the objective data" is quite reasonable. Then I have UMIK-1 and REW in a laptop already.
I forgot I used two years ago when I came to the current location. Maybe I am amazed some new shiny stuff could be attractive magically.

I am a listener who prefers non laud music. Yet some music starts loud indeed.

 

[sunao]

Hello again,

Now I have settled into the new loc, then I did a measurement. My current room is a hardwood floor, which may be a positive impact for me ( it was a concrete/laminate before).
However, the room becomes small, and non square shape. (A right side is close to the wall ~30cm/12ft. A left/back side is open). Not a near listening, my listening point (sofa) is about 5m to 8m distance from equipments. I understood an each room has an own character. It is good to measure them first.

The green line is left speaker channel, red is right speaker channel. I think I captured my bookshelves characteristic well.

The goal I want to achieve is:
1. Balance right vs left channel 2. Increase 40 to 50 Hz more 3. Increase 4k to 10k Hz more

I listen CD/SACD often, classical to instrumental rock, if that helps to understand my goal. I know I cannot adapt DSP against SACD.
Any suggestions are welcome.

 

[Keith_W]

Hello again,

Now I have settled into the new loc, then I did a measurement. My current room is a hardwood floor, which may be a positive impact for me ( it was a concrete/laminate before).
However, the room becomes small, and non square shape. (A right side is close to the wall ~30cm/12ft. A left/back side is open). Not a near listening, my listening point (sofa) is about 5m to 8m distance from equipments. I understood an each room has an own character. It is good to measure them first.

Listening position 5-8m away from the speaker means that you have a very large room! With respect, the way you write is a little confusing. I am having trouble picturing your room. Are you able to do a quick drawing with rough dimensions for your room along with where your speakers are placed, and your listening position?

The green line is left speaker channel, red is right speaker channel. I think I captured my bookshelves characteristic well.

The goal I want to achieve is:
1. Balance right vs left channel 2. Increase 40 to 50 Hz more 3. Increase 4k to 10k Hz more

I listen CD/SACD often, classical to instrumental rock, if that helps to understand my goal. I know I cannot adapt DSP against SACD.
Any suggestions are welcome.

View attachment 304417

According to measurements of your Revel 105 speaker, the top end should not behave like that:

I suggest you experiment with toe in of your speaker. With a dropping upper freq response like that, it looks as if they are not toed in enough.

The bass drop off you measured at 70Hz is exactly in line with Amir's measurements. There is nothing you can do to bring it back, the only solution is subwoofers. However, you stated that one of your goals was "increase 40Hz - 50Hz more". You could achieve that by trying a different listening position. Put your mic at the listening position, then move it forward in 50cm increments, repeating the measurement as you go along. It may look better, it may look worse, but you will find a point where it looks the best.

 

[ZolaIII]

Aim microphone at 45° vertically and do measurements again and post it so that we can see what is happening in highs right after those horrible peeks present in 3 to 4 KHz range. Optimise speaker placement, obviously you have space for it. Convert SACD's to PCM and avoid it all together in the future. Small near field speakers should be used like that at 1~2 m distance. Even big bookshelf's put against the back wall won't cover it at that distance. If you want bass then you obviously need sub's. Try using equal loudness normalisation. There are software solutions including free one's to do PEQ, FIR and loudness adjustments like EQ-APO.

 

[Sokel]

Something must be wrong about distances.
For 8 m listening distance I would get floor to ceiling horns with 18" bass drivers at least .
If the measurement is from that distance no wonder seems like this in highs,it would still be inclined even if tweeter was pointed with mic with laser accuracy horizontally and vertically.

 

[Chrispy]

I'd think a sub might help but your integrated amp doesn't seem to provide a path to high pass your speakers with something like a minidsp to take full advantage of it (altho maybe with your speakers may not be so important). I'd first try different positions in your room for the speakers, maybe corner loading.

 

[ZolaIII]

Something must be wrong about distances.
For 8 m listening distance I would get floor to ceiling horns with 18" bass drivers at least .
If the measurement is from that distance no wonder seems like this in highs,it would still be inclined even if tweeter was pointed with mic with laser accuracy horizontally and vertically.

Well we can't suggest him to get big pro grade boxes with long horns and splited double 18" sub's. He should shorten it to 2 m with direct triangle aim with those and have deacent space on both sides behind the speakers and himself which should be possible in such a long room.

 

[Tom C]

Hello again,

Now I have settled into the new loc, then I did a measurement. My current room is a hardwood floor, which may be a positive impact for me ( it was a concrete/laminate before).
However, the room becomes small, and non square shape. (A right side is close to the wall ~30cm/12ft. A left/back side is open). Not a near listening, my listening point (sofa) is about 5m to 8m distance from equipments. I understood an each room has an own character. It is good to measure them first.

The green line is left speaker channel, red is right speaker channel. I think I captured my bookshelves characteristic well.

The goal I want to achieve is:
1. Balance right vs left channel 2. Increase 40 to 50 Hz more 3. Increase 4k to 10k Hz more

I listen CD/SACD often, classical to instrumental rock, if that helps to understand my goal. I know I cannot adapt DSP against SACD.
Any suggestions are welcome.

View attachment 304417

Because SACD (DSD, DSF) can be converted to PCM in various ways, it then becomes possible to apply DSP. But, I realize some folks won’t be wanting to do this.

 

[Apesbrain]

The goal I want to achieve is:
1. Balance right vs left channel 2. Increase 40 to 50 Hz more 3. Increase 4k to 10k Hz more

You should be able to lift the high-end using the treble control (+/- 6 dB at 10 kHz) on your Rotel. To fill out the bottom two octaves, you might consider a subwoofer. A separate sub has the advantage of being able to be moved to the rear or side walls to best manage room nodes. This HSU has speaker-level pass-through which would give you the ability to high-pass your speakers:

VTF-2 MK5 Subwoofer

Introducing the VTF-2 MK5, the epitome of affordability and value in the renowned HSU lineup. This subwoofer is designed to cater to budget-conscious enthusiasts without compromising on quality or performance. Most affordable and budget-friendly subwoofer One of the smallest subwoofers so it...

hsuresearch.com

Correcting a frequency-dependent channel imbalance without DSP means trying different speaker positions/distances, room treatments and listening positions, and settling for the best possible result. I'd start by sitting in a favorite listing position and playing a mono source with vocals to see if there is a general skew. If so, correcting this with the amp's balance control might be sufficient.

P.S. A concern with the "miniDSP" option is that it will likely overdrive your Rotel depending on your listening level.