Schiit Jotunheim 2 Review (DAC & Headphone Amp)

[Jimbob54]

I did not say that neither, but for a start, in this particular one, we have one metric, Sinad at 1kHz. I can assume that the limitation would be reflected to other measurments, but what I don't like is that it suggest, along with the SINAD chart, that it is enough to say it's a product that perform poorly. Now sure, I would like to see thd +N over the entire band, I would like to see impulse response to visualise pre ringing phenomenons,etc. Does it means that it would change the score, not necessarily, but assuming that this dashboard tells us 100% of how a product behave, for 100% of the content, in 100% of the listening conditions, would not be scientifically accurate neither. i was reading an interview with Bruno Putzeys, saying that he used measurments, a lot, but vert targetted measurments, specifically looking for very precise issues, that are not necessarilly the common ones that spits out a spec. He was also saying that generally, enthusiasth are good listeners, that they don't have the knowledge to pinpoint what is truly wrong or limitative, but that he allow great value to subjective assessments of listeners, that they are more often than not right, but that's his job to find the right measurment to find why, and the right engineering solution. When I have more time I'll try to find it. I tend to agree with this.

This was a very truncated DAC review - for obvious reasons, it fell at the first hurdle. Its not going to have impressive properties on the rest of the usual tests Amir would run on a full DAC review. It cant accurately reproduce a 1khz tone and cant output 2v. The rest of the tests might show some interesting quirks in a DAC that performs well on the 1khz dashboard, so worthy pursuing, but not here.

 

[Long Audio Beard]

I hope you don't mind me butting in and 'chatting' about such stuff. The fascinating thing for me was with a modern better sorted stereo system (remember, we had Naim and Linn here back in the mid 80's), even the early CD players don't seem to sound as horrid as I remember them being. I do have a Deep Purple CD (Burn, original issue) which sounds as if the RIAA encoding was put onto the master tape used to aid record cutting but not corrected when transferred to digital making the music all but scream at you relentlessly and this for a heavier rock band where you need to hear and feel the bass as well... The remaster appears to have sorted this but discs like this are an exception. Known 'difficult' discs (Vivaldi Four Seasons, Academy of Ancient Music - Pinnock from the early 80's) used to sound absolutely horrible and 'screechy' back then (the more squeaky sounding 'original' instruments didn't help) but today, this recording sounds as it is, a nice production of original instruments in a good acoustic - in my opinion. I do appreciate you're not speaking of this kind of 'tone' but there are modern speakers that 'do' voices very well indeed with no added bloom or 'grit' and also amps with no hard or harshness in their distortion and (finally getting to the point) to me at any rate, the differences in dac tech and so on becomes fully resolved, inferior ones with higher distortion or CD players like my Micro Seiki (based on the Philips 960/Marantz CD94 derived 'universal' chassis but heavily tweaked and with additional transformer coupled balanced outs which came with their own adaptor cables for RCA use (two 'hot' pins 2 and 3 wired for signal hot and return and screen pin 1 disconnected at the RCA end) just sounding 'enhanced' or even slightly coloured, if you see what I'm getting at. I suspect my own player used from the transformer coupled outs, has a little extra bass distortion to make the sound more 'organic' and musical and I have a sneaky feeling the hf filtering in said transformers may absorb some of the extra hf 'sh*t' that some of these TDA1541 based machines could chuck out (I have no proof of this though, so it's just a hunch).

It has been said over the years that a higher noise floor (within reason) can help the perceived sound at home. I didn't care for the 'No Noise' software EMI often used and maybe still do as in excess, it sounded 'wrong' to me on backgrounds heard especially on headphones - Far better to have a master tape 'presence' on analogue recordings if not overdone. I never found UK FM radio at its best to be an issue I have to say (it's crap these days though apart from the odd BBC live recording imo) and this is basically 13 bit digital I gather and back in the days of the very first CD players from Philips, a cassette recording from the CD (metal tape on a top Nakamichi and set up for the tape before recording) sounded 'nicer' to me than the CD original.

All this 'thinking out loud' makes me wonder if the appeal of some multi-bit dacs is actually 'nice added noise' and maybe a gently rolled off top?

Forgive me if I'm thread drifting - I'm good at that.

I have had a lot of the same experiences as you, and along those lines I recently dusted off an old cassette tape I hadn't heard in maybe 25-30 years but my tape players are all wildly out of spec so I picked up a very cheap new portable cassette player at a local store (no noise reduction circuits), not anything meant to be great just stereo, and I was astonished at the massive noise floor on the cassette because it's been so long but also astonished at the really great music quality riding over this massive noise floor, I was expecting utter trash.

Something about rolled off top end which is it has been used to simulate "warm" tube sound is that interestingly in ordinary tube circuits that are not state of the art the frequency response is not so easy to pin down and aside from rolled off top end there are other non-linear responses that can impact the sound.

Anyways, the nature of R2R DACs (depending on the rest of the circuitry and the filtering) creates a different noise profile to be filtered that could indicate why some of the R2R CD players sound a certain way, and with newer filtering designs from some of the current makers using DSP, they are doing some very interesting programming to filter for frequency but also for sequences in time sometimes in ways that result in a different sound. The tricky part for me is you can visually and easily see the difference between 2 images in terms of image processing, but with audio it takes time and sometimes accidents to filter audio in ways that may appeal to people, and of course musical genres differ and like you say the very compressed and high volume on a lot of CDs (and sometimes the remasters are worse even) just does not do the format justice and streaming those same tracks or upconverting them to 24 bit or higher doesn't make them any better to listen to,

maybe you've been to things like:
Loudness Database
where you can see some relative loudness differences between tracks and albums, including differences from vinyl to CDs of the same music, so unfortunate that music that could have sounded so much better was transferred to digital or mixed from the start in digital with such limited dynamic range, really puts our SINAD measurements in perspective when you have a CD where so much dynamic compression was deployed!

 

[Long Audio Beard]

Metrics, don’t mean measurments, for example, multibit dacs use less noise shaping calculations that’s a “metric” less interpolatin in their algorythm, that is a metric. I am not saying it offers a benefit in term of reproduction, if that’s what you tought I meant, but yes, some of the calculations involved in the conversion are more mathematically exact.

yes this is accurate IMO, noise shaping is different in Multibit/R2R vs DS and some believe less noise shaping is more accurate to the performance that was recorded but along same lines, very different filtering is often deployed between the 2 topologies and can sometimes have a big impact, some believe a well implemented Multibit/R2R can outperform a well implemented DS in terms of interpolations meaning what happens between the samples, but again outperforming can mean different things to different people, maybe it sounds more lifelike and less recorded but that does not mean it will measure as well in terms of SINAD etc

 

[poimandres]

How did this thread get so far off of the rails? Amir recommended the amp.

 

[Jimbob54]

yes this is accurate IMO, noise shaping is different in Multibit/R2R vs DS and some believe less noise shaping is more accurate to the performance that was recorded but along same lines, very different filtering is often deployed between the 2 topologies and can sometimes have a big impact, some believe a well implemented Multibit/R2R can outperform a well implemented DS in terms of interpolations meaning what happens between the samples, but again outperforming can mean different things to different people, maybe it sounds more lifelike and less recorded but that does not mean it will measure as well in terms of SINAD etc

Which manifests how in the users experience?

 

[Jimbob54]

How did this thread get so far off of the rails? Amir recommended the amp.

Sadly, they put a dac in it

 

[poimandres]

It is available without the dac. Great job, way to go Schiit!

 

[Long Audio Beard]

Did Schiit add to their product line to satisfy the demand they did not realize was there (and was created in part by the review)? Yes.

Did Schiit add to their line, for $100, an easier to design and manufacture, and cheaper to boot, version of the Magni 3? Yes.

Was it ready the day after the article dropped? No.

Are op amps so cheap and easy to manufacture with stupid low distortion numbers that they also came out with a $200 balanced version (that easily could've been a $400 Jot 2 and made everyone in this forum happier since it measures better) just to give the finger to all of us? Yes.

And I don't know if they thanked Amir personally, but they do acknowledge the role this community played in these changes.

Personally I would not be suprised if this entire episode wasn't some kind of get rich quick marketing scheme dreamed up by Amir and Jason to sell cheap, low distortion opamps by ton but ...

FOILED BY COVID. Really kind of unfair during their best year Trump Tariffs, Covid disruptions and poor logist... er, suffice it to say the year was good Schiit, but not the great Schiit it could've been. I'm not in agreement with the entire made in America thing, but I do support it. DCA headphones ftw!

Lol, Schitt did put out the "Heresy" unit (forgot what it is at the moment, a headphone amp w/o a discrete output stage maybe?) so I am sure they are thinking about all this kind of stuff when they are designing and planning

 

[poimandres]

The Jot 2 appears to be receiving great objective and subjective reviews. I may have to pick one of these up.

 

[Long Audio Beard]

Which manifests how in the users experience?

not sure what you mean, many people that have compared like some of the multibit/R2R designs over even amazing DS units, and depending on choice of music the differences have not been terribly subtle IMO, when music you've heard for years and have played through numerous DACs suddenly sounds more lifelike you notice and test more and more music to see if your ears are deceiving you and you try to rule out various components and other factors, believe me I did not want to drink this kool-aid, I had long abandoned R2R DAC designs until a couple years ago I started to notice things and it's not just me, not to say there are not great DS DACs because I have some, but between different DS DACs I detect subtle differences (sometimes!) but between some multibit or R2R DACs the difference with DS DACs is really not that subtle IMO

example, at the moment, I just played "owner of a lonely heart" by Yes (from the 1980s), I don't know the details of how it was recorded by the artist. I have heard this for years and years on vinyl, on tape, on CD and streaming. streaming via Amazon Music so this is not even a lossless version, it is MP3 but a decent quality but not as good as CD quality, anyways through a good DS DAC with a Wolfson chipset it sounds like I am streaming the song, it sounds kind of bright and flat and dynamics not what they could be for this track, and I am not saying this is a great test track to begin with, then switching back and forth with one of the multibit DACs it is clearly different, it is no longer so bright but is not attenuated highs, it is more even, more dynamic, vocals sound less processed, analog synths with their textures are more present, midrange better defined, and overall the song comes alive more the way I feel it should, YMMV

 

[HiFidFan]

is this a troll post?

you are on audio science review. measurements reflect the real sound of the product. if it's not comprehensive enough then suggest some new test that would be good enough for you. but don't bring emotion to scoring a product, it's not objective, not scientific in any way.

No, that was not a troll post.

There are people outside of ASR that buy audio gear
There are people that disagree with the notion that 'only measurements matter'
Tube amps exist
Turntables exist
Vinyl sales exceeded CD sales recently

You may not like it, but there is a market for distortion

 

[Jimbob54]

not sure what you mean, many people that have compared like some of the multibit/R2R designs over even amazing DS units, and depending on choice of music the differences have not been terribly subtle IMO, when music you've heard for years and have played through numerous DACs suddenly sounds more lifelike you notice and test more and more music to see if your ears are deceiving you and you try to rule out various components and other factors, believe me I did not want to drink this kool-aid, I had long abandoned R2R DAC designs until a couple years ago I started to notice things and it's not just me, not to say there are not great DS DACs because I have some, but between different DS DACs I detect subtle differences (sometimes!) but between some multibit or R2R DACs the difference with DS DACs is really not that subtle IMO

example, at the moment, I just played "owner of a lonely heart" by Yes (from the 1980s), I don't know the details of how it was recorded by the artist. I have heard this for years and years on vinyl, on tape, on CD and streaming. streaming via Amazon Music so this is not even a lossless version, it is MP3 but a decent quality but not as good as CD quality, anyways through a good DS DAC with a Wolfson chipset it sounds like I am streaming the song, it sounds kind of bright and flat and dynamics not what they could be for this track, and I am not saying this is a great test track to begin with, then switching back and forth with one of the multibit DACs it is clearly different, it is no longer so bright but is not attenuated highs, it is more even, more dynamic, vocals sound less processed, analog synths with their textures are more present, midrange better defined, and overall the song comes alive more the way I feel it should, YMMV

OK. So if I'm in the market for just such a sonic experience, what factors should I look for in the specs /measurements? What would tell me I would get this texture and presence etc? Let's assume I can't audition. I just have published reviews /materials.

 

[Long Audio Beard]

OK. So if I'm in the market for just such a sonic experience, what factors should I look for in the specs /measurements? What would tell me I would get this texture and presence etc? Let's assume I can't audition. I just have published reviews /materials.

I agree that's the trouble, we have specs and measurements that are more or less objective but may not tell you all you need to know, and you can't always trust subjective reviews!

To experiment for those interested, I would try to get the least costly DAC you can afford that uses a different type of conversion process for digital to analog. So if you have a DS DAC, try and get a multibit or R2R DAC or something from Chord because they are a little different for example. Or if you already have something like a multibit DAC, get a good DS DAC, then grind through music you know well and if you notice no difference or the new DAC is worse, return it and tell them not as advertised. Or if you have a preamp or receiver with a DAC you can use those as one of the choices, or a CD player that has its own internal DAC plus digital output (toslink optical or digitial coax) that may help to compare. I think having neutral headphones and speakers is useful too. Just my 2 cents

 

[Jimbob54]

I agree that's the trouble, we have specs and measurements that are more or less objective but may not tell you all you need to know, and you can't always trust subjective reviews!

To experiment for those interested, I would try to get the least costly DAC you can afford that uses a different type of conversion process for digital to analog. So if you have a DS DAC, try and get a multibit or R2R DAC or something from Chord because they are a little different for example. Or if you already have something like a multibit DAC, get a good DS DAC, then grind through music you know well and if you notice no difference or the new DAC is worse, return it and tell them not as advertised. Or if you have a preamp or receiver with a DAC you can use those as one of the choices, or a CD player that has its own internal DAC plus digital output (toslink optical or digitial coax) that may help to compare. I think having neutral headphones and speakers is useful too. Just my 2 cents

And how should I test and compare what I have now to the new thing I buy?

 

[HiFidFan]

So, I'm in the market for a great tasting birthday cake. What measurements do I look for that tell me which one I would prefer the texture & taste of? Let's assume I can't sample either cake. I just have the ingredients list and on-line reviews to go by. How do I decide?

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

Lol, Schitt did put out the "Heresy" unit (forgot what it is at the moment, a headphone amp w/o a discrete output stage maybe?) so I am sure they are thinking about all this kind of stuff when they are designing and planning

The Heresy is what I referred to in the second sentence.

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

How did this thread get so far off of the rails? Amir recommended the amp.

People here believe the Magnius is better than the Jot because it measures better. So debate ensued as to audibility of said measurements, then people said Schiit is embarassed about the Amir outing of their lousy numbers. I pointed out Amir's article has increased Schiit's sales tenfold in the low price area and given them the idea to sell cheap op amps for the same price as their discrete designs and make more money per unit. Then someone said but Heresy. Then I said yes, exactly. That's how we got here. Also too much weed this weekend ..

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

is this a troll post?

you are on audio science review. measurements reflect the real sound of the product. if it's not comprehensive enough then suggest some new test that would be good enough for you. but don't bring emotion to scoring a product, it's not objective, not scientific in any way.

What science do you point to that the measurements taken by Amir reflect the sound of the products he reviews? Can he hear the difference between these amps? I doubt it. How these numbers reflect the real sound when you can't hear the differences doesn't strike me as scientific thiking on your part kid.

 

[HiFidFan]

How did this thread get so far off of the rails? Amir recommended the amp.

It seems to me, because some members apparently have a burr in their butt about anything Schiit.

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

Tell you guys what. The first of you can hear the difference between 5 amplifiers and their relative levels of distortion I'll pay $100. We'll work out a fair selection.