Schiit Jotunheim 2 Review (DAC & Headphone Amp)

[PeteL]

Google has certainly found ASR. Seems half the time I can't fund something here, next step us a search on Google with ASR in the result. The YT videos come up right away too.

Sure, but don’t forget Google knows it’s you searching.

 

[bboris77]

As a former owner of the Bifrost 1 and 2, I can say this - the audible differences come from their proprietary Super Mega Combo Burrito filter, not the Multibit resistor-ladder technology itself. These differences compared to a typical DS default filter are audible (barely) and measurable.

To be fair, one can hear subtle differences between various choices on Topping DACs with selectable filters.

Effectively, one is paying for the sound of this proprietary filter and the technology under the hood that makes it tick when buying into Schiit’s multibit approach. The fact that the underlying architecture is not transparent to the same degree as TOTL delta-sigma DACs is likely a cost compromise that a lot of owners are willing to accept because the distortion is probably inaudible under normal listening conditions.

As for the honesty in marketing, I’m ok with Schiit’s philosophy that one should spend the most money on a transducer then use whatever money is left over on an amp and a DAC, in that order. This is coming from a company that does not even make headphones or speakers.

 

[Long Audio Beard]

We darn well do. That is beside the point. If the final outcome is that the device adds more distortion and noise to the design, that is that. It has lost the transparency battle. We are not here to entertain fantasies about sounds, believing stories designers tell, etc. We are here to determine what an audio product is really doing. You are asking us to believe in wishful thinking.

You previously wrote: "A factor remains that my hearing acuity for distortion/small detail is well above average due to extensive training." (June 24, 2020)

Ok, I take you at your word on that. In your listening test for this product you said it sounded fine. You did not write that at reasonable, or what you consider critical listening volume, that you detected any distortion or loss of small details. You did not note that you compared and contrasted while you were reviewing this product with another DAC, say a Topping DAC that you know is high performing. I am not saying that you should have or that you have to, just that I think at least some of us (and yes we are all fans of your reviews and I have the greatest respect for what you do and your reviews) would enjoy further comment from you in that regard. I don't think you are impressed with Schitt's multibit designs but their filtering is proprietary and even when not coming from your scope and testing, your particular subjective opinions mean a lot and if you have time, maybe on a review of the next DAC, maybe you could compare/contrast in your listening test with any Schitt multibit in terms of listening and see if you detect anything that others might or might not enjoy hearing. Either way, we enjoy all the reviews and videos you post.

 

[Jimbob54]

You previously wrote: "A factor remains that my hearing acuity for distortion/small detail is well above average due to extensive training." (June 24, 2020)

Ok, I take you at your word on that. In your listening test for this product you said it sounded fine. You did not write that at reasonable, or what you consider critical listening volume, that you detected any distortion or loss of small details. You did not note that you compared and contrasted while you were reviewing this product with another DAC, say a Topping DAC that you know is high performing. I am not saying that you should have or that you have to, just that I think at least some of us (and yes we are all fans of your reviews and I have the greatest respect for what you do and your reviews) would enjoy further comment from you in that regard. I don't think you are impressed with Schitt's multibit designs but their filtering is proprietary and even when not coming from your scope and testing, your particular subjective opinions mean a lot and if you have time, maybe on a review of the next DAC, maybe you could compare/contrast in your listening test with any Schitt multibit in terms of listening and see if you detect anything that others might or might not enjoy hearing. Either way, we enjoy all the reviews and videos you post.

I'm fairly sure he abandoned the internal DAC early doors and all further tests (including listening) were conducted using it with an external dac and just the headphone amp. Which is pretty clean and very powerful.

 

[GGroch]

As a former owner of the Bifrost 1 and 2, I can say this - the audible differences come from their proprietary Super Mega Combo Burrito filter, not the Multibit resistor-ladder technology itself. These differences compared to a typical DS default filter are audible (barely) and measurable...

I have no reason to disbelieve you. Let's stipulate it.

Do you believe that this barely audible filter explains anything about why Schiit's traditional DAC buyers enthusiastically pay more for ladder DACs? My take is that the vast majority do not hear barely audible differences, they hear huge differences. Several have testified to it on this thread. The ladder story, which has in the recent past been inextricably bound to the Schiit story, provides a structure for cognitive bias and a community that supports it. This potent combination certainly overwhelms any actual differences in sound.

 

[PeteL]

I have no reason to disbelieve you. Let's stipulate it.

Do you believe that this barely audible filter explains anything about why Schiit's traditional DAC buyers enthusiastically pay more for ladder DACs? My take is that the vast majority do not hear barely audible differences, they hear huge differences. Several have testified to it on this thread. The ladder story, which has in the recent past been inextricably bound to the Schiit story, provides a structure for cognitive bias and a community that supports it. This potent combination certainly overwhelms any actual differences in sound.

Storytelling sure is a big part of Schiit’s marketing, nobody dispute this.
Now, call me naive, I normally trust good faith. from their Head-fi “tales”:


“The most fun we had was taking the finished Bifrost Multibit to a meet and the Schiit Show, 100% incognito, to see if anyone noticed.

And, you know what? Some did.

“That’s not a stock Bifrost,” one of our early listeners told me at the Schiit Show.

“Sure it is,” I told him. “It says so right on the product mat.” (We’d had mats made up with product specs and pricing, so people new to the gear knew what they were listening to—one of the smartest things we’ve ever done.)

“No it’s not!” he insisted. “Is there, a…an upgrade, ah, coming?””

Now you are totally allowed to believe they lie to the customers, I don’t.

 

[Helicopter]

I believe the story and think it is a good one, but assuming its true, it still doesn't actually prove an audible difference. It could have been other queues, could have been the show environment and being more focused, etc. Still a great story though and I might buy if I had the same personal experience.

 

[bboris77]

I have no reason to disbelieve you. Let's stipulate it.

Do you believe that this barely audible filter explains anything about why Schiit's traditional DAC buyers enthusiastically pay more for ladder DACs? My take is that the vast majority do not hear barely audible differences, they hear huge differences. Several have testified to it on this thread. The ladder story, which has in the recent past been inextricably bound to the Schiit story, provides a structure for cognitive bias and a community that supports it. This potent combination certainly overwhelms any actual differences in sound.

Well, while I’m not a psychologist, I can tell you why I bought and sold my Bifrosts. I bought the original Bifrost because of the sheer curiosity. I really wanted to experience what all the fuss was about first-hand. It did sound different to any D/S DAC but not amazingly better or worse, just slightly different. While I personally liked the way this filter sounded, I did notice a fairly high noise floor. I sold it after a year because I wanted a better measuring DAC with a lower noise floor. I got the Modi 3.

I eventually got the Bifrost Multibit V2 as I heard that it measured better. The noise floor on this revision was much better. I was happy with it until the Bifrost 2 came out and my curiosity got the better of me again. I sold it and got the Bifrost 2.

Unfortunately my Bifrost 2 had some intermittent low level electrical noise in one of the channels. At that point my dilemma was whether to exchange it or get my refund and give up. I decided to do a level-matched non-blind test between it and my Steinberg UR12. The conclusion was that while there were minor differences in transient response, they were akin to differences between various filters on say the D70. It was definitely not a groundbreaking improvement. I just could not justify spending 7 times more for a DAC that was not clearly better sounding. As a result, I ended up returning the Bifrost 2 and using the money to upgrade my speakers. I am currently happy with my Atom DAC.

The attraction of Schiit’s multibit technology for me is the proprietary and experimental nature of it. It is the fact that they took the time and trouble to at least attempt their own approach to developing a proprietary filter and the supporting structure underneath. I think it is a noble endeavor and I do not mind supporting it.

 

[GGroch]

.......Now you are totally allowed to believe they lie to the customers, I don’t.

You provide a perfect example that proves my point. The story sounds true to me, not a lie.

The story relates that a presumably large number of people visiting their booth heard a new unlabeled multibit DAC. Some percentage were amazed at how much better and different it sounded. Schiit then retells the story on Head-fi implying it does sound better better and different without saying so. It sounded so different that some show goers immediately heard the change, under what must have been far less than ideal conditions.

The thing is, it doesn't sound different, or if it does, the difference is TINY. Stoddard admitted as much in this Head-fi post on blind listening. Read the last paragraphs where Stoddard says that under the best circumstance differences in DACs are so tiny that even the developers guess wrong a lot of the time.

In the blog post, Stoddard expresses surprise at this. It appears they have only been doing blind testing for the last year or so and assumed (as he admits) the differences were far greater than they are.

I will be more impressed by Schiit's new more honest approach if they quit using testimonials that are the result of cognitive bias as proof their stuff sounds a lot better when it doesn't.

 

[PeteL]

You provide a perfect example that proves my point. The story sounds true to me, not a lie.

The story relates that a presumably large number of people visiting their booth heard a new unlabeled multibit DAC. Some percentage were amazed at how much better and different it sounded. Schiit then retells the story on Head-fi implying it does sound better better and different without saying so. It sounded so different that some show goers immediately heard the change, under what must have been far less than ideal conditions.

The thing is, it doesn't sound different, or if it does, the difference is TINY. Stoddard admitted as much in this Head-fi post on blind listening. Read the last paragraphs where Stoddard says that under the best circumstance differences in DACs are so tiny that even the developers guess wrong a lot of the time.

In the blog post, Stoddard expresses surprise at this. It appears they have only been doing blind testing for the last year or so and assumed (as he admits) the differences were far greater than they are.

I will be more impressed by Schiit's new more honest approach if they quit using testimonials that are the result of cognitive bias as proof their stuff sounds a lot better when it doesn't.

I don’t see the contradiction, difference is tiny, some people can spot it, some people won’t, They didn’t say, “everybody heard that it was not the same dac” they said “some noticed”

 

[HiFidFan]

I definitely see bias and BS in this thread, but it ain't coming from Schiit. . .

 

[HiFidFan]

I don’t see the contradiction, difference is tiny, some people can spot it, some people won’t, They didn’t say, “everybody heard that it was not the same dac” they said “some noticed”

I guess some people think that anything beyond "Here are our products. These are the specs. Please see measurement charts. Thanks." from Schiit marketing dept. is in the same vein as selling snake oil and magic.

 

[Lotus97]

Speaking for the amp only, I think this amp is for 250, 300 and 600ohm cans. Cheaper headphone amp with superior measurements but with much less power will always lose against a headphone amp with more power and with lower measurements if high impendence cans are used.
I dont understand why some folks here are confused where this amp fits or the purpose of it, its easy and simple. I have 300Ohm and 250ohm cans and they sound dull, boring and muddy with the cheaper amps that have amazing measurements and low power.

1 watt in 300ohm is freaking amazing with 113 sinad score, this will give you the speed, dynamics and fun factor that a cheap and low power amp with better measurments will never be able to deliver, some of you folks here are really nitpicking or maybe just dont understand it.

 

[Hemi-Demon]

I don't get the fight on this one. As a $399 pure amp for high impedance headphones, this is a excellent product. Nice build quality, great power, great knob feel, balanced inputs and outputs. Grab your hd650's and enjoy. Now would I use it for iems or under 250ohm cans, nope and that is fine.

The dac....well that is just a DS vs Mbit preference that will never be solved. The cool thing is that the dac measurements, look like a mirror copy of the other MB dacs that have been reviewed in the past. So just search, if you want more dac detail.

I would rather Amirm just perform the data measurements and leave it at that. Leave any subjective analysis and panthers out of it. It breeds too much angst.
I will say I was surprised to read that some of the Schiit team is moving to Texas.

 

[Tortie]

Manufacturers design and sell hardware to make a profit. The idea that they'd make something which nobody will buy just to keep a group of people who post on a forum happy is the most ridiculous thing I've read about audio for a while. And I read reddit.

Companies sometimes continue to make products that don't sell well if they help cultivate a certain brand image the company desires. Discreet audio is technically dumb and outdated but it still has traction in audiophile circles. Maybe you should do some research such as watching the video tour of Schiit's warehouse that shows, in fact, that they sell more Magni and Modi units then anything else.


This video

In the video you'll see loads of pre-boxed M/M units on the warehouse shelfs. Why? Because they sell them by the truck load and want them ready to go out the door. Also in the video we see that the QA testers are testing stacks of M/M units. Do you see them testing Jots? Mhmm nope. Taking into consideration that the video is 4 years old it's safe to assume that the demand has only grown more skewed in favor of the M/M products owing to their increased performance in ASR measurements and acceptance by objectivists.

The Asgard and Jot are imo just symbolic products for those that like nostalgic feel good schiit.

 

[Tortie]

Schiit aren't fooling anyone. They seem to like a challenge. They are open and seem honest about what they do and why.

the creation of their multibit stuff:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sch...obable-start-up.701900/page-554#post-12031225

why people are suffering delays in orders recently:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sch...bable-start-up.701900/page-4675#post-16102543

But you'll never see them say "We know nobody's going to buy this product. But sometimes you have to waste millions of dollars making something nobody will buy to avoid negative comments on the part of the internet populated by people who know nothing about audio, electronics or business".

Also, I read elsewhere that Schiit are forced to produced stuff which measures well because of sites like ASR! Seriously - someone actually typed that!

Does Schiit have you on retainer? Because you be defending them and attacking other ASR members an awful lot.

 

[Tortie]

I don't get the fight on this one. As a $399 pure amp for high impedance headphones, this is a excellent product. Nice build quality, great power, great knob feel, balanced inputs and outputs. Grab your hd650's and enjoy. Now would I use it for iems or under 250ohm cans, nope and that is fine.

The dac....well that is just a DS vs Mbit preference that will never be solved. The cool thing is that the dac measurements, look like a mirror copy of the other MB dacs that have been reviewed in the past. So just search, if you want more dac detail.

I would rather Amirm just perform the data measurements and leave it at that. Leave any subjective analysis and panthers out of it. It breeds too much angst.
I will say I was surprised to read that some of the Schiit team is moving to Texas.

You do not need a Jot to drive the HD650. This sounds like a sales pitch and with the qualifiers you listed, it's not a compelling one at that.

 

[HiFidFan]

Companies sometimes continue to make products that don't sell well if they help cultivate a certain brand image the company wants. Discreet audio is technically dumb and outdated but it still has traction in audiophile circles. Maybe you should do some research such as watching the video tour of Schiit's warehouse that shows, in fact, that they sell more Magni and Modi units then anything else.


This video

In the video you'll see loads of pre-boxed M/M units on the warehouse shelfs. Why? Because they sell them by the truck load and want them ready to go out the door. Also in the video we see that the QA testers are testing stacks of M/M units. Do you see them testing Jots? Mhmm nope. Taking into consideration that the video is 4 years old it's safe to assume that the demand has only grown more skewed in favor of the M/M products owing to their increased performance in ASR measurements and acceptance by objectivists.

The Asgard and Jot are imo just symbolic products for those that like nostalgic feel good schiit.

From 2016

 

[Tortie]

From 2016

You're so observant

How about some crude metrics? Just checked Head-fi for the "Impressions" threads for the Magni, Asgard, and Jot. The Magni line has 194 pages of comments vs 134 for the Asgard 3, and 82 for the Jot 2. If anything these numbers understate the skew because the HF crowd buys into the myth that price=performance and thus they gravitate to higher priced products within a company's lineup. The man on the street is more focused on bang for buck and less susceptible to marketing and forum circlejerking.

Amazon.com: Schiit

Note the scant number of reviews for the older Jot and the Asgard. For a time, perhaps months or years, they were available through amazon.

Schiit Audio created an Amazon Store Front years ago. Currently, they only sell the M/M products. I wonder why? Perhaps because they move well and the expensive schiit doesn't. The commission that Amazon extracts from each sale most likely plays a part in Schiit's decision not sell the higher priced gear. From their POV those more niche expensive products are not competitive with mainstream audio gear customers and in any event they can probably generate enough direct-sales volume for them through their viral marketing and sponsorship of SBAF and HF forums to justify their continued production. These are essentially very niche products that require a cultivated sales demographic and Schiit's hands-on marketing approach at HF and SBAF works like a charm. This is textbook market segmentation.

I want to wrap this up here. Bottom line is Schiit is a budget brand. They've been outdone by other companies in this space which grows more competitive by the day. Just look at the ranking graphs. Aside some strides they've made with the Hearesy, Magnius, and Modius it's their clever marketing and humor that drive their sales. They have released several amps over the past 2 years and the highest they've climbed on the Amir's 50mV SNR chart is 13th place:



And that was their $99 Hearesy which is an IC topolgy. The Jot comes in at 28th place. There's a bevy of products that cost far less and deliver better performance than the Jot 2 including within the Schiit lineup. I really don't see a compelling case for Jot amp and that's all I have to say on the matter.

 

[PeteL]

Companies sometimes continue to make products that don't sell well if they help cultivate a certain brand image the company wants. Discreet audio is technically dumb and outdated but it still has traction in audiophile circles. Maybe you should do some research such as watching the video tour of Schiit's warehouse that shows, in fact, that they sell more Magni and Modi units then anything else.


This video

In the video you'll see loads of pre-boxed M/M units on the warehouse shelfs. Why? Because they sell them by the truck load and want them ready to go out the door. Also in the video we see that the QA testers are testing stacks of M/M units. Do you see them testing Jots? Mhmm nope. Taking into consideration that the video is 4 years old it's safe to assume that the demand has only grown more skewed in favor of the M/M products owing to their increased performance in ASR measurements and acceptance by objectivists.

The Asgard and Jot are imo just symbolic products for those that like nostalgic feel good schiit.

Every hifi compagnies have their milk cows, and statement products. That is not news. Schiits business model have always been to release a ton of products in a wide price range reaching to all segments of the market, that’s a bit of a novelty or not as common, most manufacturers, on the opposite would rather be considered either hi end and would refuse to release cheap products to not hurt their brand, or considered a high volume commodity brand and would not touch expensive products. Schiit shooots in all directions, always have been and that may be part of the reason they open themselves to passionate debates and arguments, trying to please everybody by having something for everybody is a tough gig, but they stuck to this from the start. They seem to be doing ok, since they are pretty much the one man standing that can compete with Asian pricing and still grow. (yeah I know jdslabs and stuff like that but those are tiny boutique style players, utilitarian style).