"Rich Guys and Reviewers Running Amok in Hi-Fi"

[dtaylo1066]

The Rolex movement is a very good design.
They were started by a marketing guy, not a watchmaker, and have invested huge amounts in marketing and keep the prices high by limiting availability of what are, in fact, not that expensive to make nicely finished but mass produced watches.
They are one of the most successfully marketed brands in the world.
They work well in fact and with the exception of the gold ones I don't consider them bling.
A friend of mine has a business servicing high end watches and he says the Rolex movement is one of the best he deals with but they are way over priced.
The big three, Patek, Vacheron and Audemars charge like a wounded bull for servicing, another excessive profit stream.

And I applaud capitalism and marketing. The Rolex watch makes the wearer happy he or she has one. A good watch is enhanced by the value of a brand. And, hey, when one applies for a new job, guess what, they are a brand, competing against others who promote their personal brands. The best brand wins, not necessarily the most qualified.

Even the new and modern China deduced it was a boring and stifling world if everyone wore Mao suits.

 

[SIY]

As an upper-tier of products, from a single company encompassing all aspects of HiFi, over a number of decades, there's no other brand to touch Sony and their ES gear of the 70s(Esprit), late 80s(ES) and into the early 90s (ES).

Sony did great stuff. Ditto Technics.

 

[Jim Matthews]

Speakers are a whole different world where individual areas testing, FR, THD, Sensitivity, Directivity, Max SPL @X %THD, etc, etc, all miss the mark of transparency by a wide margin. Not to mention the "on balance" differences any 2 speakers can present when directly compared.
Point being it's difficult in the extreme to look at a speaker measurements and determine which one will "speak" to you.

I consider this the essential problem in home audio. Only by chance did I bumble into a satisfactory rig - because I could afford the chance.

Budget as an obstacle to higher performance that is less of a concern (today, anyhow) with supporting electronics.

I suspect part of the problem is *us* and variable hearing acuity.

I recall a high end Strathern ribbon stack owned by a well respected local audiophile in the 1980's. It was unbearably bright, then...

I have to wonder how it would sound to me, now.

 

[restorer-john]

Sony did great stuff. Ditto Technics.

Absolutely true. Matsushita were amazing, their sheer scale of investment dollars was apparently limitless. Much bigger than Sony and way more diversified. The stuff they poured money into was just crazy. They built entire resorts here (in Queensland, Gold Coast Australia) with arguably some of the finest golf courses in our country, in the late 1980s.

For me however, their HiFi was so incredibly efficient and mass produced that it had no bespoke, over the top, personal attraction. I can't think of a single Technics product I really coveted. Sure, their continued committment to turntables in the face of digital was incredible. Their turntable legacy will never be surpassed IMO. Nobody produced a better line of quality TTs than Matsushita. (now Panasonic)

My favourite Japanese turntables are Technics, followed by Sony. The one that will outlive me of course is the venerable SL-1200mk2. As a very wise engineer and audio salesman once told my father in the 1960s "It's the moving parts, Doctor." All the clever automatic, motorized stuff dies (I should know, I'm so over fixing auto mechanism issues). My father's Empire 398a is still his favourite TT- totally manual, not even a cueing mech.

I just spent a weekend fixing a gorgeous Denon from the early 1980s that had spun up so fast it shook his desk and threatened to destroy itself. The wonders of early AC motor control...

 

[audio2design]

Yup. Here is some innovation for you: https://www.stereophile.com/content/sony-pcm-f1-digital-audio-converter

Please read the most insightful commentary by J. Gordon Holt in this Stereophile piece. 39 years later it is astonishingly profound and prophetic. thanks, Sony, and thanks to the rich F'ers who bought these first machines for $1,800 in 1982, which would be the equivalent of $5,021 today. Without these affluent, fanatical hobbyists, who were accused of using their check books to the ruination of hi-fi, we might not have digital audio today.

You confuse early adopters with luxury buyers. You are equating someone who buys a Rolls Royce, to someone who bought the first Tesla.

 

[Helicopter]

My POV is you open up a major can of worms if you wish to exclaim Chinese DAC brands as the "center of healthy competitive innovation."

At this point in digital audio the design of a quality audio DAC is neither a feat of great engineering or innovation. The burgeoning success of the Chinese DAC industry is mainly the result of utilizing chips and engineering that were pioneered or developed by other companies. Their advantage is they can produce in mass, and with quality, at price points that can virtually undercut any free-world produced (or based) product, and receive state sponsored benefits in doing so.

I would not associate the word "healthy" with that. Yes, most certainly, it is a direct, immediate and major boon to the free world consumer, as I indicated in my initial comments. But the indirect consequences can certainly be debated, which I will briefly undertake.

Now that these Chinese DAC companies have secured a major share of the low cost free-world marketplace, and eliminated or avoided the middle man in doing so, their next strategy is to focus on producing higher cost DACs in order to fully capitalize on the $500 to $1,200 market segment. One also cannot neglect the fact the Chinese DAC/Hi-Fi companies also enjoy an ever-expanding consumer class and base within in their nation of 1.3 billion people, all hungry for such consumer goods. Thus their capabilities of scale are unequaled in manufacturing history.

If you are a free-world independent company how do you survive against that? Mainly in three ways: 1) you move your manufacturing to China or another cheap labor market to contain costs; 2) you focus more, if not exclusively, on high-end, expensive products aimed at a smaller but affluent target audience; 3) through M&A you aggregate with one-time rivals as a way to achieve more scale; or 4) you work a combination of 1-4. In the long run you still stand a good chance of loosing.

I happen to see that as the antithesis of healthy competitive innovation.

I agree with most of your points regarding the general macroeconomic environment. I am not convinced it specifically applies to HiFi DACs though. Schiit is doing well in the US and might exceed the Chinese manufacturers in volume... hard to say due to potential of the Chinese domestic market.

I agree the chips are critical and global components, and that the implementations, such as running 4 chips to squeeze out a little more performance, are not genuine innovations. However, the implementation is unparalleled, and there is no analog to the synergistic work among Topping, Loxjie, Gustard, and the other excellent performing Chinese brands you find at Apos and Shenzen. To some extent the same can be said of headphone amps. These are small cottage industry shops and medium businesses at the most, so I wouldn't project arguments about cellphone or TV production onto this segment.

Yes, the macroeconomic environment, domestic policy, and internaltional trade arrangements give Chinese firms some tremendous advantages over firms in high cost locations, but I don't expect Schiit, or even JDS to shut down shop or stop selling well made sub $150 desktop devices any time soon.

My original point is just that the Chinese firms mentioned have been releasing one product after another in the first tier of the SINAD chart, often with great features, nice enclosures, etc. This an important force driving global competition in the segment. Obviously their innovators learned from companies like JDS, and rely on brilliant technology from chip makers, but many places at the tops of the SINAD charts come from these products and things like the high performance discrete circuits from Gustard are impressive.

 

[SIY]

Absolutely true. Matsushita were amazing, their sheer scale of investment dollars was apparently limitless. Much bigger than Sony and way more diversified. The stuff they poured money into was just crazy. They built entire resorts here (in Queensland, Gold Coast Australia) with arguably some of the finest golf courses in our country, in the late 1980s.

For me however, their HiFi was so incredibly efficient and mass produced that it had no bespoke, over the top, personal attraction. I can't think of a single Technics product I really coveted. Sure, their continued committment to turntables in the face of digital was incredible. Their turntable legacy will never be surpassed IMO. Nobody produced a better line of quality TTs than Matsushita. (now Panasonic)

Also the finest phono cartridges ever made. As well as the associated stepups. Technics electronics were uniformly excellent and would stand up today. Their reel to reel recorders were absolutely first rate as well, better than the Ampex gear I was using at the time.

 

[DSJR]

I recall a high end Strathern ribbon stack owned by a well respected local audiophile in the 1980's. It was unbearably bright, then...

I have to wonder how it would sound to me, now.

A musician and eventual mastering engineer friend of mine loved the Strathearn speaker prototype they brought to us. the cone bass driver needded some work to better integrate it (did Martin Logan ever get it right and at what cost?) but strings and so on could be exquisite on these. Didn't a US maker take the tweeter panel drivers over?

 

[mhardy6647]

Rich Guys Run Amok would be a great name for a band.

Or a reality TV show.

 

[Inner Space]

The big three, Patek, Vacheron and Audemars charge like a wounded bull for servicing, another excessive profit stream.

That's for damn sure. I overwound my wind-up Patek (despite extreme habitual caution) and the repair was more than 10% of the purchase price. I also asked for a new strap - for which they charged $700. I haven't used the watch since - can't afford to!

 

[Inner Space]

I can't think of a single Technics product I really coveted.

John, what was the pre-and-power they did, mid to late 70s, olive green, that looked a bit military? I remember really wanting one of those.

 

[Jim Matthews]

...but strings and so on could be exquisite on these. Didn't a US maker take the tweeter panel drivers over?

I don't know - when my set disintegrated, no parts could be found.

The Newport ribbon was a close approximation, but ridiculously heavy.

( but we digress)

 

[mhardy6647]

John, what was the pre-and-power they did, mid to late 70s, olive green, that looked a bit military? I remember really wanting one of those.

These, perhaps?

Grey, not OD, though --

 

[Inner Space]

These, perhaps?
View attachment 139594
Grey, not OD, though --

Thanks ... yes, I think those are what I was thinking of. At the time I was using two old console radios lashed together into a crude stereo array ... you can see why I thought these might be an improvement.

 

[aslan7]

The Rolex movement is a very good design.
They were started by a marketing guy, not a watchmaker, and have invested huge amounts in marketing and keep the prices high by limiting availability of what are, in fact, not that expensive to make nicely finished but mass produced watches.
They are one of the most successfully marketed brands in the world.
They work well in fact and with the exception of the gold ones I don't consider them bling.
A friend of mine has a business servicing high end watches and he says the Rolex movement is one of the best he deals with but they are way over priced.
The big three, Patek, Vacheron and Audemars charge like a wounded bull for servicing, another excessive profit stream.

Rolex spends a fortune on advertising. I love my Explorer I and it is rugged and reliable but overpriced. One nice thing about Rolex is their excellent service network. My personal favorites are Blancpain and Lange.

 

[aslan7]

That's for damn sure. I overwound my wind-up Patek (despite extreme habitual caution) and the repair was more than 10% of the purchase price. I also asked for a new strap - for which they charged $700. I haven't used the watch since - can't afford to!

You need to find a private repair person, sort of like cars. There is a great one in Boston. There are some excellent, superbly crafted aftermarket straps at well under half the price you quoted.

 

[Gorgonzola]

These, perhaps?
View attachment 139594
Grey, not OD, though --

I briefly owned the preamp of the series. The color was grey predominantly but tinged with green but not olive drab.

 

[Frank Dernie]

You need to find a private repair person, sort of like cars. There is a great one in Boston. There are some excellent, superbly crafted aftermarket straps at well under half the price you quoted.

This is true, a brilliant local watchmaker made a tiny gold screw for one of my watches but if a spare part is needed for a movement (ie a repair rather than a service) The big three won't supply independant specialists, however good and experienced they are.

 

[aslan7]

Yes they are very proprietary about parts as are most other elite companies. Also if they see someone has been in the case they refuse the repair. But the old independents usually have lots of parts and sources through their extensive connections. Manufacturer repair and servicing prices are obscene and a real impediment to buying elite watches which is why I avoid complications. For straps try Camille Fournet, Paris.

 

[Frank Dernie]

My personal favorites are Blancpain and Lange.

I have two Blancpain watches, both have been unreliable timekeepers (suddenly going slow or fast and needing service).
I love the styling but don't use them at the moment.
I'd love a Lange 1 but am too old to commit that much cash for a watch now, my daily is a Withings Scanwatch usually