Review and Measurements of Schiit Yggdrasil V2 DAC

[andreasmaaan]

I base my opinion solely on listening

I think the point others are (somewhat more abrasively) trying to make is that, without controls, it is not possible to base one's opinion solely on listening.

 

[Soniclife]

Imagine not being able to taste the difference between red and white wine

https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/08/the_most_infamous_study_on_wine_tasting.html

In a sneaky study, Brochet dyed a white wine red and gave it to 54 oenology (wine science) students. The supposedly expert panel overwhelmingly described the beverage like they would a red wine. They were completely fooled.

Imagine the price overriding how it actually tastes as well.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170814092949.htm
Humans are basically rubbish at accuracy, but brilliant at fantasy.

 

[BAMCIS]

3 criteria

1. Level matched (you acknowledge this wasn't done)
2. You don't know which DUT is active in the chain (you've not said how you have achieved this, you originally outlined consecutive set ups, not concurrent). Even better, you dont even know which devices are being tested, but that's near as damn impossible for most of us
3. Flick of a switch change in DUT (not sure how you manage that in what you've outlined)

This is no 2 of 3 permutation makes any DAC comparison valid.

But let's go a different direction. Leaving aside output levels, what do you think makes a D90 sound different to any other DAC to your ears?

I can't speak for any other DACs, jut the ones I had on hand. I'm no engineer but I know amplifiers do not track signals from 20 hz to 20K hz the same from 1 watt to say 500 watts. The same way conventional dynamic speakers do not have the same needs or maintain the same impedance at all frequencies, some dip below 2 ohms at the bottom octave. This is common knowledge I would hope. I would note that on bookshelf speakers or any that roll off at 50 to 70 hz the D90 might indeed sound the same. I was listening on 2 systems in different rooms: full range speakers and another system with planar speakers with dual subwoofers. Anyone without full range speakers is limited by their compromised frequency capabilities, no offense.

The difference was obvious right away. Are my ears really good? Was I used to the sound of the ESS 9038 PRO chips? Do they simply have a house sound that slightly emphasizes mid bass? Perhaps. I keep an open mind unlike many here.

Something was missing in that range, I spent hours to make sure I was not imagining it. Return after after listening to other systems, fresh approach still the same sound. I know that's not the same as tight controls but it's not a casual passing either.
The D90 did have a slightly softer(?) take on certain areas like vocals and cymbals which was really nice. I wasn't expecting that. I listen and let the sound take me wherever it leads. No expectations. I've set the bar too high before with amps and speakers to know that's bad. I'm not good with audio adjectives so bear with me.

My point is that 'without listening controls nothing can be discerned' is not 100% accurate. That's all. If that's true, it means when we listen without them we have no idea what we're hearing. It also means suggests there's no difference in any audio equipment at all. Wrong again. Also that it's still purely subjective even with listening with controls, which of course bring better focus but still not certainty. (silly again) Those second order effects apparently never occurred to the strict controls crowd

 

[andreasmaaan]

My point is that 'without listening controls nothing can be discerned' is not 100% accurate. That's all. If that's true, it means when we listen without them we have no idea what we're hearing. It also means suggests there's no difference in any audio equipment at all. Wrong again. Also that it's still purely subjective even with listening with controls, which of course bring better focus but still not certainty. (silly again) Those second order effects apparently never occurred to the strict controls crowd

Are you not at least open to the idea that, given what the research tells us about (a) human psychology and (b) nonlinear distortion audibility, your perception of the sonic differences between these devices might be influenced by factors you have not controlled for?

 

[Soniclife]

Also that it's still purely subjective even with listening with controls, which of course bring better focus but still not certainty.

No, with listening controls you can prove you can discern a difference. Only after that determination has been made you can move onto preference testing.

 

[majingotan]

We're pretty much going circular arguments here. Maybe take a time to read the ASR Manifesto thread first so that you have an understanding of what really happens when you let your auditory perception run out of control. Haven't referenced this thread for awhile now but this one is a good time for it.

 

[Jimbob54]

I can't speak for any other DACs, jut the ones I had on hand. I'm no engineer but I know amplifiers do not track signals from 20 hz to 20K hz the same from 1 watt to say 500 watts. The same way conventional dynamic speakers do not have the same needs or maintain the same impedance at all frequencies, some dip below 2 ohms at the bottom octave. This is common knowledge I would hope. I would note that on bookshelf speakers or any that roll off at 50 to 70 hz the D90 might indeed sound the same. I was listening on 2 systems in different rooms: full range speakers and another system with planar speakers with dual subwoofers. Anyone without full range speakers is limited by their compromised frequency capabilities, no offense.

The difference was obvious right away. Are my ears really good? Was I used to the sound of the ESS 9038 PRO chips? Do they simply have a house sound that slightly emphasizes mid bass? Perhaps. I keep an open mind unlike many here.

Something was missing in that range, I spent hours to make sure I was not imagining it. Return after after listening to other systems, fresh approach still the same sound. I know that's not the same as tight controls but it's not a casual passing either.
The D90 did have a slightly softer(?) take on certain areas like vocals and cymbals which was really nice. I wasn't expecting that. I listen and let the sound take me wherever it leads. No expectations. I've set the bar too high before with amps and speakers to know that's bad. I'm not good with audio adjectives so bear with me.

My point is that 'without listening controls nothing can be discerned' is not 100% accurate. That's all. If that's true, it means when we listen without them we have no idea what we're hearing. It also means suggests there's no difference in any audio equipment at all. Wrong again. Also that it's still purely subjective even with listening with controls, which of course bring better focus but still not certainty. (silly again) Those second order effects apparently never occurred to the strict controls crowd

You didn't just play the "your system isn't revealing enough" card did you?

I think you just did. That's yet another red flag.

But I think you already know that. It's just the same BS. The issue isn't whether there are audible differences between equipment. The issue is if you are going to claim there is you have 2 options.

1. Produce well conducted measurements that strongly suggest there should be in accordance with accepted audio, acoustic and psychoacoustic as well as the rest of the fields in this area, OR

2. Demonstrate how you derived that conclusion based on controlled listening tests. I don't need to tell you how that works.

 

[Killingbeans]

I keep an open mind unlike many here.

Just don't keep it open enough to let your brain fall out

It has already been asked in this thread, but what convinced you that the necessity of an open mind wasn't needed when talking about interconnects and power cords? And what makes these things irrelevant when shifting the focus to DACs?

 

[amirm]

Every single test? On multiple amps and speakers? Everyday and night for three weeks? With 50 familiar CDs? At all volume levels? Sure, seems plausible... The bias, which you assume must have existed, would be in the reverse. I wanted to like the new DAC not the other way around.

Bias is a small flaw in the protocol. Lack of it doesn't fix the test. We simply listen differently from time to time and that alone causes massive difference in what we perceive. It doesn't matter if you expected to hear a difference. Or that you thought one should be worse but turned out to "sound better." Your hearing is not a constant. If you focus for detail, you hear detail. If you do not, then you don't. This is why it is critical that the experiment is repeated many times and statistical analysis is performed to tease out how reliable your observations were.

None of this is intuitive or easy to understand until you perform your first, controlled test and have it invalidate everything that you thought was so easy to hear, but couldn't in controlled testing. It opens a vast new era of understanding for you. None of us will succeed in showing this to you until you try it.

 

[BAMCIS]

I think the point others are (somewhat more abrasively) trying to make is that, without controls, it is not possible to base one's opinion solely on listening.

Agreed, be it known, I cannot hear anything, I never have been able to and everything sounds the same regardless of price, reel to reel smokes SACD, speak and spell delivered 32 bit, smoke signals crush iphone 6, whatever.. I'll sell all my gear and just play bongos. case closed holy neuro disorders batman eat some xanex and chill out

 

[BAMCIS]

Bias is a small flaw in the protocol. Lack of it doesn't fix the test. We simply listen differently from time to time and that alone causes massive difference in what we perceive. It doesn't matter if you expected to hear a difference. Or that you thought one should be worse but turned out to "sound better." Your hearing is not a constant. If you focus for detail, you hear detail. If you do not, then you don't. This is why it is critical that the experiment is repeated many times and statistical analysis is performed to tease out how reliable your observations were.

None of this is intuitive or easy to understand until you perform your first, controlled test and have it invalidate everything that you thought was so easy to hear, but couldn't in controlled testing. It opens a vast new era of understanding for you. None of us will succeed in showing this to you until you try it.

I recall you saying you weren't sure what to do about your DX7 PRO when you finished measuring the SMSL M500. What were the results of your own controlled listening test? Which one was the winner? Tie? What were the factors in your decision? What became of the loser?

I'd like to know what all the people actually do after the completion of these serious listening tests which they surely conducted on every item in there system. Cry? Stare at a wall? Animal sacrifice? What exactly is the next step? Nobody thought about a follow on question I suppose.

I told a coworker last year our military had deleted a top Iranian general. He confidently asked me which one, as if he wwas quite the expert on Iranian generals. I told him to start naming top Iranian generals and I'd let him know if he called his name. He was shocked and couldn't speak. He hadn't thought about what he was asking and embarrassed himself in blindly nit picking my comment.

So let's hear some test items and results from the high priests of subjectivity out there. My D90 is long gone so testing might be difficult but I'll give it a shot when my SMSL SU 9 gets here. I admit I have more scrutiny with expensive components but these DACs are really cheap. I'll post my SU 9 findings and eagerly await the suggestions as to exactly what my next step should be. I hear it really sounds different in the lower treble region...

 

[BAMCIS]

No, with listening controls you can prove you can discern a difference. Only after that determination has been made you can move onto preference testing.

Thanks. Prove how, listening notes? To who, yourself?

 

[andreasmaaan]

I'd like to know what all the people actually do after the completion of these serious listening tests which they surely conducted on every item in there system. Cry? Stare at a wall? Animal sacrifice? What exactly is the next step? Nobody thought about a follow on question I suppose.

I can tell tell you what I do before completing a controlled listening test or taking measurements: treat my opinions with a bit of caution and humility.

 

[majingotan]

I'd like to know what all the people actually do after the completion of these serious listening tests which they surely conducted on every item in there system. Cry? Stare at a wall? Animal sacrifice? What exactly is the next step? Nobody thought about a follow on question I suppose.

Nope. I focus on other aspects such as usability that suits my daily routine. Currently, I use my SP2000 DAP (dual AK4499 Velveeta sound) with my CA Andromeda 95% of my total audio time since I bring that setup to work and still listen to it at home. On weekends, I fire up my Bifrost 2/Saga/HS7+ HS8S nearfield setup and enjoy the same audio nirvana experience I get with my SP2000/Andromeda setup

 

[amirm]

I recall you saying you weren't sure what to do about your DX7 PRO when you finished measuring the SMSL M500. What were the results of your own controlled listening test? Which one was the winner? Tie? What were the factors in your decision? What became of the loser?

??? You are in Schiit Yggdrasil DAC thread. If you look earlier you see that I compared it to Topping DX7 Pro. The person who loaned it me said the DX7 Pro didn't sound as good. I told him to give me the specific tracks. I then tested the two level matched and at normal volume, in blind controlled testing, they sounded the same.

I was in the middle of testing at much lower levels and then amplifying the difference. There was some but before I could finish it, the owner asked for his Schiit DAC back and that was that.

I have no idea what you mean by what I did with the looser. I have just about every DAC that I own still here. I probably have 30 to 40 by now if not more. They are not in use however. What is in use is the RME ADI-2 DAC on my desktop and Matrix MQA Sabre on my main system.

 

[amirm]

I told a coworker last year our military had deleted a top Iranian general. He confidently asked me which one, as if he wwas quite the expert on Iranian generals. I told him to start naming top Iranian generals and I'd let him know if he called his name. He was shocked and couldn't speak. He hadn't thought about what he was asking and embarrassed himself in blindly nit picking my comment.

Don't take us/me for him. I can spell out everything. I have run countless double blind tests and published them. I have experienced the very thing you had and know it to be wrong in countless instances. We don't bluff or screw around here. Unlike hobbyists, my job and future of the company and my career was at stake when I managed audio technology development. You can bet I did not try to fool myself when doing that work.

 

[BAMCIS]

You didn't just play the "your system isn't revealing enough" card did you?

I think you just did. That's yet another red flag.

But I think you already know that. It's just the same BS. The issue isn't whether there are audible differences between equipment. The issue is if you are going to claim there is you have 2 options.

1. Produce well conducted measurements that strongly suggest there should be in accordance with accepted audio, acoustic and psychoacoustic as well as the rest of the fields in this area, OR

2. Demonstrate how you derived that conclusion based on controlled listening tests. I don't need to tell you how that works.

You didn't just play the "my speakers don't need to produce full-scale, bottom octave bass for me to speak with authority on the matter" card, did you? If you did you are hilarious, couldn't resist turning that airtight logic back on you.

Some of you guys are 100% certain you know what others hear and don't hear, triggered and reflexively irate because you probably own the item in question? Men don't think that way. Any information I provide is promptly dismissed and redirected into a veiled personal attack instead of pausing even for a split second to consider what I said.

Are you being defensive because you do not own full range speakers? It's OK man, most of us don't. I couldn't affor any until I was in my late 20s. Perhaps you are making do with a headphone amp in small apartment, dreaming of the real thing? Mom's basement maybe? It's OK man, the rona hit some folks hard so I understand.

You are also playing the 'make accusations then demand huge wonky request for detailed evidence and when it's not provided, (hold your breath) I must have surely been FOS' card right?

Let me make sure I have you position correct: You are asking me to provide detailed evidence proving a claim a claim that you are making isn't true. That's called disproving a negative. It doesn't work that way. If that's your position you have no substance or dare I say it, hi-fi chops. If you want to provide this evidence, go ahead. Let me know when you have it all worked out. The very idea you'd deny what I heard and ask for evidence says you'd just deny any findings that run counter to your precious yet misplaced belief that a DAC cannot possibly sound different than another. I have no question about it, you do. Now get crackin' and make sure you find a revealing system with full range speakers to do this testing on. Be a shame to come away with skewed data. Take it easy dude, everything's going to be OK.

Good luck with the big project

 

[majingotan]

This track came perfectly on my shuffle while I'm reading this thread. The accuracy is spot-on.

 

[BAMCIS]

??? You are in Schiit Yggdrasil DAC thread. If you look earlier you see that I compared it to Topping DX7 Pro. The person who loaned it me said the DX7 Pro didn't sound as good. I told him to give me the specific tracks. I then tested the two level matched and at normal volume, in blind controlled testing, they sounded the same.

I was in the middle of testing at much lower levels and then amplifying the difference. There was some but before I could finish it, the owner asked for his Schiit DAC back and that was that.

I have no idea what you mean by what I did with the looser. I have just about every DAC that I own still here. I probably have 30 to 40 by now if not more. They are not in use however. What is in use is the RME ADI-2 DAC on my desktop and Matrix MQA Sabre on my main system.

Sorry Amir, there are so many insecure reflexively irate D90 apologists throwing handfuls of excrement at me from their cages I can't keep things straight.

This place is hilarious! I love it! It's also like I thumbed my nose at the Pope in the Vatican tho. Folks are way too uptight.

What would you want to trade for that sweet Matrix DAC? I'm sure that RME is tip top but I hear it's like figuring out Vulcan chess and dazzling light displays keep us from the inner sanctum where we truly hear what's going on. My main listening room is pretty strict, relatively speaking

 

[BAMCIS]

Nope. I focus on other aspects such as usability that suits my daily routine. Currently, I use my SP2000 DAP (dual AK4499 Velveeta sound) with my CA Andromeda 95% of my total audio time since I bring that setup to work and still listen to it at home. On weekends, I fire up my Bifrost 2/Saga/HS7+ HS8S nearfield setup and enjoy the same audio nirvana experience I get with my SP2000/Andromeda setup

Gosh, I couldn't imagine a like that at work. You must be the honcho. Is Velveeta replacing their Velvet sound? I wonder if they messed up with the translation