Review and Measurements of Musical Fidelity M2si Amp

[Blumlein 88]

I have an open mind. I have repaired audio equipment for 35+ years and have heard many, many different systems and combinations thereof, which I believe has enabled me to keep an open mind.

I still enjoy this site, and we are all entitled to our opinions.

If you have an open mind, then try what is suggested. You've been doing this for years (guess what so have lots of people here), you have heard many systems and combinations (guess what so have lot of people here).

So far you are hitting all the stereotypical denial points. I'm not one to fool myself, I've heard lots and this gives me experience to draw upon, I make changes and my wife hears it or my son notices (you forgot the dog or cat reacts to changes), I don't think A/B comparisons are the right way to go about it, blah, blah, blah. Now I'm poking a little fun at your expense. Quite a few of us have been there.

Do the test the right way, and see what happens. So far you aren't doing that. And its not that everything sounds the same, but if they have the same performance or very nearly so they do.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Just by way of comparison, here's a preamp I've just completed. I use a slightly modified home built Cirrus CS4398 DAC (Ebay kit) as my measurement source.

So now see if you can hear differences without knowing which is which. If they are real, then you'll be able to hear it just the same. You don't have to switch quickly if that isn't how you do it normally. You just have to have the switches made without your knowing which you are listening to at a given time.

 

[restorer-john]

0.001% THD+N and 99.8dB SINAD is verging on poor for a preamp in my opinion.

I don't agree. 0.001% is excellent for a preamplifier. Across the frequency range, not just at 1KHz. Not remotely "verging on poor".

There is a UK manufacturer - LFD - who never measure* their products, they used listening tests only (allegedly!).

*not sure if they measure them these days...

LFD is the brainchild of Dr Richard Bews and Professor Malcom Hawksford (Essex Uni). I picked up a preamplifier and power amplifier of theirs several years back. Very pretty little pair but absolutely hideous on my test bench- the power amplifier was unstable into benign loads and really was a gutless thing. Part of the circuitry looked like it was assembled by a six year old with a plumber's soldering iron. Two banks of resistors (by design) ran so hot they charred the fibreglass PCB.

I have some photographs someplace. See if I can find them. Edit: found the wall-of-shame pics. Maybe for another thread?

Correspondence with the good doctor was short as he didn't like valid constructive criticism. Needless to say, the cute little LFD pre/power pair has a new home.

 

[scott wurcer]

Correspondence with the good doctor was short as he didn't like valid constructive criticism. Needless to say, the cute little LFD pre/power pair has a new home.

The good Dr. Hawksford has also been unresponsive to valid criticism of his rather wrong articles on wire.

 

[restorer-john]

The good Dr. Hawksford has also been unresponsive to valid criticism of his rather wrong articles on wire.

Here's a copy (attached) of his 1983 "fuzzy distortion" paper.

Is he a party to some of the patents(?) used with the THX FF/FB circuitry being employed in the Benchmark(?) and some THX headphone amplifiers? (I've seen his name buried in there).

The 1983 paper was over my head, and didn't seem to reach any concrete conclusions back then, but clearly served as the basis/stepping stone for their Low Fuzzy Distortion (LFD) commercial foray into the "high end". I wanted to see what two respected English professors of engineering could produce when they pulled out all the stops. I was greatly disappointed when the substance failed to match the hype...

 

[scott wurcer]

The 1983 paper was over my head, and didn't seem to reach any concrete conclusions back then, but clearly served as the basis/stepping stone for their Low Fuzzy Distortion (LFD) commercial foray into the "high end". I wanted to see what two respected English professors of engineering could produce when they pulled out all the stops. I was greatly disappointed when the substance failed to match the hype...

Fuzzy thinking, stunning I never knew they actually tried to use the nonsense in this paper, you need to realize the idea of peer review is rather weak (for the conference papers non-existent) with respect to the AES.

As for Benchmark it is standard due diligence to reference everything possibly related, IIRC even I was in there somewhere.

 

[audio_tony]

I don't agree. 0.001% is excellent for a preamplifier. Across the frequency range, not just at 1KHz. Not remotely "verging on poor".

It's not very good relative to what is easily achievable was my (poorly conveyed) point. One would expect better from MF especially.

LFD is the brainchild of Dr Richard Bews and Professor Malcom Hawksford (Essex Uni).

Yes, my reference to LFD was purely anecdotal.

I had read elsewhere about poor measurements and poor build quality, and yet amazingly some people still love the LFD gear, who knows why.

 

[LLL]

I had read elsewhere about poor measurements and poor build quality, and yet amazingly some people still love the LFD gear, who knows why.

Because objective measurements and facts don't convince some people, "stories" do, and they think they can hear magic. Also, some people suffer from a disease called "too rich".

 

[Dj7675]

I just don't understand a few things...
1-Why people refuse to believe that sighted tests are worthless because we humans are affected by expectation bias, placebo affect etc. It seems like this is a verifiable scientific fact.
2-A blind A/B test, with the help of someone isn't that difficult to do. Within an hour you could actually know if a difference can be detected between units.
3-To state that x unit measures well but sounds bad and not be willing to do an A/B test to verify they hear what they think they do.

I would think more people would be genuinely curious if they could in fact detect the differences they think they do. Not that long ago, I decided to do a double blind test of 320K AAC vs Lossless. I have limited bandwidth at our home and have trouble streaming Tidal Lossless but their "hifi" plan streams at 320K AAC. The test confirmed I was merely guessing. I'm not saying that everyone can't tell them apart, but I can't. Subscribed to Roon with Tidal Hifi and have been streaming 320K aac.

@audio_tony, it sounds like you have been at this a lot longer than me, but I think you would find the process and the results interesting. If you are open to it, it would be interesting picking a couple of components and sharing your results.

 

[amirm]

I had read elsewhere about poor measurements and poor build quality, and yet amazingly some people still love the LFD gear, who knows why.

I do, I do! It is the same people who a few months later go and change to something else. Or buy a cable to lift the veil. And if that fails, get some footers underneath it. Each of these triggers some false notions of fidelity which naturally fades because it is not based on reality.

 

[scott wurcer]

which naturally fades because it is not based on reality.

Not with Charles Hansen of Ayre, he maintained cable lifters as well as the species of wood "totally" changed the sound. I lost the email exchange he had with Barrie Gilbert trying to explain why feedback was bad. It was private so I would not post it anyway but it was an insight into how hopeless the situation is with a core of highly respected members of the "hi-end" community.

 

[amirm]

Not with Charles Hansen of Ayre, he maintained cable lifters as well as the species of wood "totally" changed the sound. I lost the email exchange he had with Barrie Gilbert trying to explain why feedback was bad. It was private so I would not post it anyway but it was an insight into how hopeless the situation is with a core of highly respected members of the "hi-end" community.

He might hold on to that but then "discover" that little stickers on walls improve the sound. After that, it will be something else... like a different Ethernet switch... or a cable for the hard disk for your server....

 

[dkinric]

Are you telling me my green marker is of no use for my cds?

 

[peng]

The AVRs' PSUs will run out of steam really fast in the low end, particularly with multiple channels at once.

For the two channel driven tests, I would bet most mid range AVRs such as the Denon AVR-X4500H, Marantz SR7013, Yamaha RX-A2080 will beat the just measured Musical Fidelity integrated amp, 8 ohm or 4 ohm, at 0.1% THD+N or even lower. I think the lower to mid end integrated amps superiority in PSU/power output are often overrated.

 

[peng]

Do you want the graph or just worse case number?

Being Audiosciencereview.com, I would think the graph below (for both 8 ohm and 4 ohm load, two channel driven simultaneously) should always be included:

Can you explain what the Start level: 1 Vrms, Stop level 2 Vrms mean? My guess is that the AP would start sweeping at 1 Vrms level, and increment in say 0.1 V(?) or so step each time it repeats the sweep until it hits the target THD+N value, do I guess right?

Another graph that is good to have is the 1 kHz power sweep for 4 ohms so that we can see the "knee" point, instead of just X Watt @0.1%
Other sites typically do that easy one too so we can compare..

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements

 

[Dj7675]

I like the idea that makes it easier to compare measurements of different sites. The sites that still measure seem to be: hometheaterhifi, audioholics, stereophile, and here. Anything that can be done to make it easier to compare would be great.

 

[amirm]

Can you explain what the Start level: 1 Vrms, Stop level 2 Vrms mean? My guess is that the AP would start sweeping at 1 Vrms level, and increment in say 0.1 V(?) or so step each time it repeats the sweep until it hits the target THD+N value, do I guess right?

Yes, it is the search range for the target THD. A smart algorithm would do a binary search, starting with 1.5 and keep halving the difference to find the target. Stepping 0.1 volt as you mention would take much longer. That said, I have not tried to figure out what the AP software is doing.

 

[amirm]

Another graph that is good to have is the 1 kHz power sweep for 4 ohms so that we can see the "knee" point, instead of just X Watt @0.1%

That is in every review I do of amplifiers. In this case the amp shut down before clipping so you don't see the knee.

You can see that in the Benchmark graph in red.

 

[HammerSandwich]

Sometimes, even if one recognizes the illogical nature of one's own prejudices, it is easier to accommodate that prejudice than to defeat the complex psychological nature of our human foibles.

Hey, I'm totally in favor of placebo effects. If cable lifters, green Sharpies or your alcohol of choice helps you to enjoy your recordings, ENJOY THAT $%!#, man.




I just object to paying a lot for placebos.

 

[Anmol]

Hey, I'm totally in favor of placebo effects. If cable lifters, green Sharpies or your alcohol of choice helps you to enjoy your recordings, ENJOY THAT $%!#, man.




I just object to paying a lot for placebos.

I am sure Alcohol of choice will cost money - any place I can get free booze?.. -