Review and Measurements of MARCH audio dac1

[Pillars]

You can't be serious? No offence, but I get feeling that you have zero practical experience with industrial manufacturing?

Those who can't do, teach...

No, but I know I could probably churn out a box every 4 hours and put it up on etsy I'll see myself out now, best of luck.

 

[Frost]

I've got a 3D printer and can design so, not a problem. I can make an enclosure to spec for the Khardas board.

Dude, that's one thing. Mass manufacturing is another. Sure I can cad something out in like an hour given the right measurements, and print/mill one out pretty easily. but that's not including the price of many other business overheads and labor, and that's where the real pricing comes in... If you looked over at the 3d printed khadas case thread, you'll find people paying ~$30 for the minimalist design posted, and that's probably straight off the printer unfinished. The aluminum case, especially if cnc milled, probably costs significantly more due to the price of a machinist and material, anodizing, case qc, etc. and all those probably get passed up to Alan, who then assembles things, and sells at a margin which he feels is worth him providing two years of warranty, along with probably hours playing customer service or outsourcing that, which is another expense.

You go for it. See who wants to buy a wobbly amateur plastic case. Do you have any aesthetic / artistic skills to make a design choice for the shape, materials and feel? Do you have the test and measurement skills to quality control and test the final product? Do you have the technical skills to select and evaluate the board in the first place?

As I said, you are just another totally clueless Internet expert.

ouch, bud, I feel like my minimalist case design for the tone board using 3d printed pla was pretty well liked...

 

[March Audio]

There are many scams in the world of watches.
But most reputable companies will let you know what kind of movement it is, sometimes even the model specifically.
You know that you are paying for the cost of the movement + their design and mfg.

In the case of this product, it seems that it is a tone board with some slight modification and then placed into a simple box and sold for 4x as much... that is deceitful especailly when you claim to not want to expose the specs due to possible "chinese copycats" when the board itself is chinese...
I think that at this point in time "the chinese" have proven to be able to make their own very competant designs (Topping & SMSL) without the help of others.

I would like to point out that I never said anything about Chinese copy cats or attempted to hide what was in it. I just never said. I had no obligation to and I am getting pretty damn tired of implications of deceit and being a rip off merchant by clueless Internet experts who are essentially just trolling.

I bought an OEM board which I put into a product with care and skill. Just like many manufacturers do.
People here would not have known about the boards capabilities if I hadn't made Amir aware and that was my mistake.

 

[Jimster480]

You have no idea what khadas quality control is like. Regardless it still requires testing after the final product is assembled. You wouldn't have the first clue how to do that.

Go on then, put your crappy home made plastic box on sale and see where you get.

You are just a clueless Internet expert.

I think the problem is that you are charging basically $280 for a case.
Any person with business sense can contract a case mfg and have the cases made to spec if you want to do a large enough run of them.
Hell here in the USA Schiit sells devices in metal cases for $100, I could contact the same company that does the case runs for Schiit and have them build them for the Khadas boards too....

Not to say that you haven't done any work, but considering the lack of features provided on the DAC and just the simple light and enclosure... you should have set the price at $200 and been fine with people buying your device to have what is a very competent DAC at a very reasonable price.
Instead you are in the upper tier of prices, with a $100 premade module inside of a case that you are selling for quite a large profit.

As a person with experience in the software development and mfg sectors, I can say that you can have a box made domestically for under $15 if you have a run of 1000 units.
At a run of 100 units, assuming you have a small mfg make the boxes for you... you could pay around $25-40 per case.

At this time if you did buy the boards, add the connectors + case as a small time guy.... Selling it at even $220 would net a profit of ~$50 or 25% (about 10x the markup of average computers sold in stores).
You could then build your brand further by offering an amp/pre-amps etc based on the same chassis (and further reduce your chassis prices) that just stack together like other "stacks".

 

[March Audio]

You should make that your signature. Only the fact is that you are a clueless salesman.

Yes, my mistake was letting people know about the board. But you think you are an expert now so please go ahead and make your product.

 

[March Audio]

I think the problem is that you are charging basically $280 for a case.
Any person with business sense can contract a case mfg and have the cases made to spec if you want to do a large enough run of them.
Hell here in the USA Schiit sells devices in metal cases for $100, I could contact the same company that does the case runs for Schiit and have them build them for the Khadas boards too....

Not to say that you haven't done any work, but considering the lack of features provided on the DAC and just the simple light and enclosure... you should have set the price at $200 and been fine with people buying your device to have what is a very competent DAC at a very reasonable price.
Instead you are in the upper tier of prices, with a $100 premade module inside of a case that you are selling for quite a large profit.

As a person with experience in the software development and mfg sectors, I can say that you can have a box made domestically for under $15 if you have a run of 1000 units.
At a run of 100 units, assuming you have a small mfg make the boxes for you... you could pay around $25-40 per case.

At this time if you did buy the boards, add the connectors + case as a small time guy.... Selling it at even $220 would net a profit of ~$50 or 25% (about 10x the markup of average computers sold in stores).
You could then build your brand further by offering an amp/pre-amps etc based on the same chassis (and further reduce your chassis prices) that just stack together like other "stacks".

Again you are showing your total ignorance of product manufacture.

What do you think the cost of any board in any product is compared to the sale price?

If you think the sale price is not multiples of the BOM then you are being naiive.

Just another clueless Internet expert.

So if its so easy please bring your product to market.

Don't you think Schiit was rather a poor choice for comparison. Products that have been demonstrated time and time again on this forum to be extremely poorly performing and poor value for money regardless of low price. That's probably why they perform so badly being so cheap. Then again aren't some of their poor performers also extremely expensive?

 

[chauct]

A

You have no idea what khadas quality control is like. Regardless it still requires testing after the final product is assembled. You wouldn't have the first clue how to do that.

Go on then, put your crappy home made plastic box on sale and see where you get.

You are just a clueless Internet expert.

Alan, you owed up to your mistakes and have apologied. Many of us accepted your explanation, some didn't. I don't think it does any good to the forum to keep going back and forth. Those find the DAC1 has some extrinsic values will vouch for it with their wallets, those didn't, well, won't.

 

[helloworld]

I think the problem is that you are charging basically $280 for a case.
Any person with business sense can contract a case mfg and have the cases made to spec if you want to do a large enough run of them.
Hell here in the USA Schiit sells devices in metal cases for $100, I could contact the same company that does the case runs for Schiit and have them build them for the Khadas boards too....

Not to say that you haven't done any work, but considering the lack of features provided on the DAC and just the simple light and enclosure... you should have set the price at $200 and been fine with people buying your device to have what is a very competent DAC at a very reasonable price.
Instead you are in the upper tier of prices, with a $100 premade module inside of a case that you are selling for quite a large profit.

As a person with experience in the software development and mfg sectors, I can say that you can have a box made domestically for under $15 if you have a run of 1000 units.
At a run of 100 units, assuming you have a small mfg make the boxes for you... you could pay around $25-40 per case.

At this time if you did buy the boards, add the connectors + case as a small time guy.... Selling it at even $220 would net a profit of ~$50 or 25% (about 10x the markup of average computers sold in stores).
You could then build your brand further by offering an amp/pre-amps etc based on the same chassis (and further reduce your chassis prices) that just stack together like other "stacks".

I bet the next product from khadas, they will still have a bare board but will provide a case option

 

[Veri]

God damn this thread is going nowhere it's the same thing being regurgitated over and over again. @March Audio I applaud you having Amir measure the tone boards I only think you could have been more transparent about the dac1 since people were very confused at the start of this thread.

I still vouch for a lock here, people will apparently keep coming spewing the same vitrol.

 

[DonH56]

This thread should be closed if not flat out deleted. I do not agree with personal insults, but the continued harping on the price of the case completely ignores the price of doing business. As has been said, it is typical for commercial products to sell on the order of ten times the materials cost. The extra is not pure profit as some seem to think; there is all the overhead of paying for the R&D, manufacturing and packaging, marketing and sales channels, shipping, warranty support, accounting and taxes, etc. etc. etc.

 

[March Audio]

A


Alan, you owed up to your mistakes and have apologied. Many of us accepted your explanation, some didn't. I don't think it does any good to the forum to keep going back and forth. Those find the DAC1 has some extrinsic values will vouch for it with their wallets, those didn't, well, won't.

Sorry I'm just getting tired of the ignorant trolls.

 

[Frost]

Yes, my mistake was letting people know about the board. But you think you are an expert now so please go ahead and make your product.

Hey now, I don't think that's where your mistake is. Someone would have opened the box sooner or later, and then we'd be getting all these post about how we could save a few hundred by buying khadas, and you'd be swamped with it then... The real issue is just the usual of people not knowing the costs of overhead and thinking since Product A+Product B makes Product C, Product C should be the price of A&B, and forgetting about all the invisible costs in the background

 

[amirm]

I think the problem is that you are charging basically $280 for a case.
Any person with business sense can contract a case mfg and have the cases made to spec if you want to do a large enough run of them.
Hell here in the USA Schiit sells devices in metal cases for $100, I could contact the same company that does the case runs for Schiit and have them build them for the Khadas boards too....

The schiit case is junk compared to this. The March audio case is one you would normally use for a multi thousand dollar dac. The pictures don't do justice to it.

 

[Jimster480]

Again you are showing your total ignorance of product manufacture.

What do you think the cost of any board in any product is compared to the sale price?

If you think the sale price is not multiples of the BOM then you are being naiive.

Just another clueless Internet expert.

Lets take a look at the Topping D30.... It has more inputs than your DAC and the same number of outputs.
it has a nice set of switches and its price is $100 delivered.
I have added the total cost of all the components inside (the ones that I could find the prices to) and found the prices were around ~$46 +/- $8.
That isn't including the cost of the case itself.
Assuming they can have the case machined for $10 (not too bad of a price since it is solid aluminum) that would leave a profit of $25-30.
That is shipping via Amazon though that will take 10-30% of the sale price, and the cost of delivery which would be around another $10.

Assuming that Topping is selling it for the MSRP of $120, its likely they are making less than $25 per unit when all is said and done.

On ebay there is one shipped for $105.
This is 10% ebay fee ($10.50), and shipping (atleast $10 from china).
That would leave the MFG with $79.50, of which they could have UPTO $66 of cost.

When it comes to a product like the DX7, from what I was able to source... the cost is closer to around $120. There are some unknown factors such as the screen (since I couldn't find it off the shelf) and the small SMD's that I can find part numbers to. I added ~$20 hoping to cover it all.
The case again could be made for maybe around $10-12.

Therefore the "profit" on this unit even at a cost around $150 would be much higher at the original retail price of $400.
But imagining $400 via ebay, thats still 10% ebay fee, 3% paypal fee. Which amounts to $42 + shipping from china ($20) which means around $62.
So that would leave them with $338, with a cost around $150.

The leaves them with $180 profit. Which is quite a nice profit assuming my prices are correct. But this is their "flagship" product.

They have all custom boards done themselves, custom firmware, and they have licensing with XMOS.
So all of this "profit" also has to pay for their R&D.
Nevermind that they are testing with an APTX555 just like what Amir has.

Unfortunately you have done NONE of this engineering, offer a product without ANY of the features or costs and yet your price is actually higher.
And yet you claim that I am another "clueless internet expert"?

The reality is that had you never shown up the Khadas tone board, when Amir disassembled the DAC we would have found it and searched it and this same backlash would have come.

There are plenty of other products that have been tested here with prices that are too high and performance that isn't too wonderful and as such have not been recommended.
As much as the benefit of the doubt has been given to you, your arrogance in this matter isn't helping your case.

 

[March Audio]

This thread should be closed if not flat out deleted. I do not agree with personal insults, but the continued harping on the price of the case completely ignores the price of doing business. As has been said, it is typical for commercial products to sell on the order of ten times the materials cost. The extra is not pure profit as some seem to think; there is all the overhead of paying for the R&D, manufacturing and packaging, marketing and sales channels, shipping, warranty support, accounting and taxes, etc. etc. etc.

My suggestion is that the review be reposted with reference to Khadas and this nonsense deleted.

Commentary judging or criticising value for money is fair game, that's fine. However this trolling from clueless Internet experts isn't. It devalues the good work Amir and Thomas do and the ASR reputation.

 

[Jimster480]

The schiit case is junk compared to this. The March audio case is one you would normally use for a multi thousand dollar dac. The pictures don't do justice to it.

Even if he paid twice as much for the case (for a nice one) you and I both know that the case isn't even $50, let alone $100.

 

[confucius_zero]

so... what did I miss? can someone TLDR this thread so far?

 

[DonH56]

Good grief, the price of the case is irrelevant...

I'm out, call me when ASR returns to technical and fun stuff instead of this ridiculous lynch mob...

 

[Jimster480]

so... what did I miss? can someone TLDR this thread so far?

This DAC is a Khadas Tone board in a box for $280 more.
March Audio is mad.

Basically the whole thread.

 

[March Audio]

Lets take a look at the Topping D30.... It has more inputs than your DAC and the same number of outputs.
it has a nice set of switches and its price is $100 delivered.
I have added the total cost of all the components inside (the ones that I could find the prices to) and found the prices were around ~$46 +/- $8.
That isn't including the cost of the case itself.
Assuming they can have the case machined for $10 (not too bad of a price since it is solid aluminum) that would leave a profit of $25-30.
That is shipping via Amazon though that will take 10-30% of the sale price, and the cost of delivery which would be around another $10.

Assuming that Topping is selling it for the MSRP of $120, its likely they are making less than $25 per unit when all is said and done.

On ebay there is one shipped for $105.
This is 10% ebay fee ($10.50), and shipping (atleast $10 from china).
That would leave the MFG with $79.50, of which they could have UPTO $66 of cost.

When it comes to a product like the DX7, from what I was able to source... the cost is closer to around $120. There are some unknown factors such as the screen (since I couldn't find it off the shelf) and the small SMD's that I can find part numbers to. I added ~$20 hoping to cover it all.
The case again could be made for maybe around $10-12.

Therefore the "profit" on this unit even at a cost around $150 would be much higher at the original retail price of $400.
But imagining $400 via ebay, thats still 10% ebay fee, 3% paypal fee. Which amounts to $42 + shipping from china ($20) which means around $62.
So that would leave them with $338, with a cost around $150.

The leaves them with $180 profit. Which is quite a nice profit assuming my prices are correct. But this is their "flagship" product.

They have all custom boards done themselves, custom firmware, and they have licensing with XMOS.
So all of this "profit" also has to pay for their R&D.
Nevermind that they are testing with an APTX555 just like what Amir has.

Unfortunately you have done NONE of this engineering, offer a product without ANY of the features or costs and yet your price is actually higher.
And yet you claim that I am another "clueless internet expert"?

The reality is that had you never shown up the Khadas tone board, when Amir disassembled the DAC we would have found it and searched it and this same backlash would have come.

There are plenty of other products that have been tested here with prices that are too high and performance that isn't too wonderful and as such have not been recommended.
As much as the benefit of the doubt has been given to you, your arrogance in this matter isn't helping your case.

Again you are guessing and have no clue about manufacturing costs and the hidden costs behind.

You are just being a clueless Internet expert and you certainly dont know what their costs are or if they are making any profit.

It's your arrogance and ignorance that is the issue here.