Revel F328be

[echopraxia]

That would mean they would prefer Revels to stuff like Genelec, Kii 3, and D & D 8C as well.

I suppose it really depends on the extent to which a wider dispersion (where off-axis response is similar to listening window response) overrides the preference advantage of an otherwise smoother response.

In any case, we may find out -- at least from the subjective perspective of a few humans over here (which I fully understand that not everyone cares about). I just ordered a pair of Salon2's, and will definitely be doing another blind test session (at some point in the future) of Revel Salon 2 vs Genelec 8351B

Of course, I don't expect the results of that will satisfy anyone except those who already agree with the results (like any other small-N blind test), but it still will be very interesting nonetheless.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I suppose it really depends on the extent to which a wider dispersion (where off-axis response is similar to listening window response) overrides the preference advantage of an otherwise smoother response.

In any case, we may find out -- at least from the subjective perspective of a few humans over here (which I fully understand that not everyone cares about). I just ordered a pair of Salon2's, and will definitely be doing another blind test session (at some point in the future) of Revel Salon 2 vs Genelec 8351B

Of course, I don't expect the results of that will satisfy anyone except those who already agree with the results (like any other small-N blind test), but it still will be very interesting nonetheless.

At least it will be your take. As J.S. Mill wrote (paraphrase): the way to distinguish the greater from the lesser pleasure is to ask the man who has experienced both.

 

[richard12511]

Or better bass.

That's why I always run my tests crossed to subs(at 100hz). If you're running 2.0, though, that bass really is a true indicator of performance, so it's not wrong to pick the speaker with better bass.

 

[richard12511]

In any case, we may find out -- at least from the subjective perspective of a few humans over here (which I fully understand that not everyone cares about). I just ordered a pair of Salon2's, and will definitely be doing another blind test session (at some point in the future) of Revel Salon 2 vs Genelec 8351B

Please, please do this. This is perhaps my dream blind listening test. Try to get as many people as you can. Also, maybe add a 3rd speaker into the test to make it harder to identify each speaker?

If you can get enough folks in the test, it would definitely go a long way in helping me to find my end game music speaker.

 

[HooStat]

Please, please do this. This is perhaps my dream blind listening test.

Completely agree. I wish I could be part of that one.

Just curious, why the Salon instead of the F328Be?

 

[echopraxia]

Completely agree. I wish I could be part of that one.

Just curious, why the Salon instead of the F328Be?

I’ve heard that Kevin Voecks says the Salon2 still beats anything from the PerformaBe line, and the F328Be would actually have cost me more than the Salon2 (since the F328Be is brand new and doesn’t really have any special sales available, whereas the Salon2 is much older).

 

[echopraxia]

Please, please do this. This is perhaps my dream blind listening test. Try to get as many people as you can. Also, maybe add a 3rd speaker into the test to make it harder to identify each speaker?

If you can get enough folks in the test, it would definitely go a long way in helping me to find my end game music speaker.

Definitely will be doing it at some point, though I don’t know exactly when. This time around I’ll probably plan it much more carefully and involve everyone around here e.g. selecting test song lists etc. so there won’t need to be any silly debate afterwards about that. And yeah, maybe I can get some more listeners involved who are in the area if it happens long enough after the Covid situation passes.

 

[HooStat]

so there won’t need to be any silly debate afterwards about that

Don't worry. People will find something else to debate.

Sounds reasonable on the Salon. It is the ultimate test.

 

[napilopez]

The differences in neutrality are likely to be almost inaudible. The biggest difference will be in the width of the horizontal dispersion. I would expect the F328be to win, based on what Floyd had to say in the big thread on AVS.

See the Salon 2 vs M2 blind. The M2 is more neutral(similar to top Genelecs) than the Salon 2, yet it still lost because it has more narrow dispersion. Many people were surprised, given that the M2 is more neutral(interestingly, Olive's formula disagrees with Floyd). Floyd kinda explained why he expected the Salon 2 to win, and why he was excited to see the science verified when it did. Essentially, he said that once you get to a certain level of neutrality, being more neutral beyond that doesn't really affect listener preference all that much. At that level of neutrality(which the Salon 2, F208, F228, F328 all have), the battle is going to be won based on which loudspeaker has wider horizontal dispersion.

Personally, I'm not sure I yet buy this, but I do believe it's Floyd's view. Actually, thinking about it now; I do buy it. I think most people generally do prefer wider dispersion.

That would mean they would prefer Revels to stuff like Genelec, Kii 3, and D & D 8C as well.

One thing I do want to reiterate though is that it seems most people preferring wide directivity is like most people preferring blue to green. One preference seems to be more common, but there can very much be strong preferences for one or the other.

Another thing to note, at least in the case of something like the Kii 3 or D&D, is I imagine most people buying these full range speakers don't really want to use them with subs, in which case the active speakers may have an advantage. That's just a guess though.

 

[q3cpma]

I suppose it really depends on the extent to which a wider dispersion (where off-axis response is similar to listening window response) overrides the preference advantage of an otherwise smoother response.

In any case, we may find out -- at least from the subjective perspective of a few humans over here (which I fully understand that not everyone cares about). I just ordered a pair of Salon2's, and will definitely be doing another blind test session (at some point in the future) of Revel Salon 2 vs Genelec 8351B

Of course, I don't expect the results of that will satisfy anyone except those who already agree with the results (like any other small-N blind test), but it still will be very interesting nonetheless.

I somehow expect the lack of sub with the Genelec to "skew" the results.

 

[edechamps]

I somehow expect the lack of sub with the Genelec to "skew" the results.

Yep. @echopraxia Maybe do the listening tests with some highpass filter (e.g. 80 Hz) applied to prevent bass extension from dominating listener impressions?

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

Yep. @echopraxia Maybe do the listening tests with some highpass filter (e.g. 80 Hz) applied to prevent bass extension from dominating listener impressions?

I think with 80hz highpass, the lack of bass extension would make it hard for me to focus on other sound quality factors.

 

[q3cpma]

I think with 80hz highpass, the lack of bass extension would make it hard for me to focus on other sound quality factors.

60 would probably do the trick, it looks like the 8351B's port tuning is ~70 Hz. Still not much, but I'm afraid it's not a very useful test without either a sub to augment them or such a highpass filter.

 

[Absolute]

Deep bass differences will probably decide the winner between two very good speakers in blind testing. And since deep bass is so easily achievable for the more sophisticated (read ASR reader) audiophile, I'd be more interested in the subjective differences from 80 hz and up than between two speakers with big differences in bass capability.

Toole says bass accounts for around 30% of the listening experience and another study says the area between 200-400 hz are especially important in subjective comparisons, so those things makes me curious about two things;

- Subjective comparisons when the deep bass issue is removed from the equation between vastly different sizes of speakers.

- Subjective comparisons with and without EQ up to 500 hz.

Considering the important area between 200-400 hz I'm not convinced in the slightest that wider directivity is a general preference. In the infamous M2 vs Salon2 blind-test there's an assumption that this is the main reason for the result, but I'd not be surprised that the benefit of having more bass drivers closer to the floor results in a tactical advantage in the critical area that could at least partially explain such a result.

I think a few experiments of both room EQ in the room-resonant area and high-passed speakers could shed some light on these things.

 

[edechamps]

The other problem with comparing a big speaker and a small speaker with very different bass extension is that it will be obvious which speaker is playing just from the amount of bass. This will de facto make the test a sighted test, with all the implications that come with that.

 

[ernestcarl]

The other problem with comparing a big speaker and a small speaker with very different bass extension is that it will be obvious which speaker is playing just from the amount of bass. This will de facto make the test a sighted test, with all the implications that come with that.

Perhaps one could apply a low cut filter so that both sets of speakers share the same bass roll-off.

 

[tuga]

The large floorstander has the baffle extending all the way to the floor and a woofer array which probably tones down the effect of floor-bounce cancellation.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

The other problem with comparing a big speaker and a small speaker with very different bass extension is that it will be obvious which speaker is playing just from the amount of bass. This will de facto make the test a sighted test, with all the implications that come with that.

I don't think blind testing of speakers is really feasible under any circumstances. Beside the bass profile, the rest of the sonic signature will make each speaker readily distinguishable to anyone familiar with the sound of both speakers. There are simply too many variables (polar pattern, FR over the entire sonic spectrum, cabinet resonnances, phases anomalies) to ever render such a trial as anything other than sighted for all intents and purposes.

 

[echopraxia]

I don't think blind testing of speakers is really feasible under any circumstances. Beside the bass profile, the rest of the sonic signature will make each speaker readily distinguishable to anyone familiar with the sound of both speakers. There are simply too many variables (polar pattern, FR over the entire sonic spectrum, cabinet resonnances, phases anomalies) to ever render such a trial as anything other than sighted for all intents and purposes.

I think it's fine if the listener can infer the speaker, if we've already controlled for all other factors as best as possible. For example, if you do a blind test between my iPhone speakers and my Genelec 8351B's, I obviously will be able to know what I'm listening to. But it doesn't invalidate the legitimacy of the results, it emphasizes them and the strength of the preference.

 

[Absolute]

The real danger in blind testing speakers comes from two things imo;

1. Comparing just two or three speakers will exaggerate the good/bad and those differences will most likely be instantly recognizable across songs, making it somewhat biased depending on what you preferred early in the test.

2. Assuming that whatever sounds the most impressive during short stints will translate to what is preferred over time without switching/comparing to something different enough to create doubts.

The first point is adressed by Toole in his book and acknowledged by Kevin Voecks at Harman in one of the interviews posted here on a thread the other day.

The second is a difficult one and I'm not sure how we can reliably test for that.