• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously. We now measure and review equipment for free! Click here for details.

Revel F328Be Speaker Review

Chromatischism

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
1,346
Likes
1,006
What are their trade-offs?
From what I remember when I researched this a year or two ago, you lose a lot of SPL making it work. I guess if you aren't doing movies you may not mind.

At any rate, we have a better way to "make the room disappear" with subs: placed strategically and equalized together (ala Sound Field Management, Audyssey, Dirac, Multisub Optimizer, etc).
 
Last edited:

andreasmaaan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,476
Likes
8,525
What if you put 4 large studio monitors in the corners of the room? Wouldn't that take care of a lot?
Strictly speaking, your bass response would tend to be smoothest if you placed the four speakers in the centre of each wall.

It would still not be very smooth without equalisation, though.

(Many people like to "bring them out from the walls" but Genelec has the measurements to show how that causes more comb filtering and should be avoided.)
Do you have a link to this, please? I think I saw something from Genelec on this some time ago, but if it's what I'm thinking of, I wasn't convinced ;)
 
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
28
Likes
24
Whaaaaaaat?

I'm talking about a single metric value being assigned to convey the performance of a 3-Dimensional speaker.

If I didn't believe in measurements at all then I wouldn't spend days of my own time conducting them as well.
Actually the science looks quite good. The Genelec 8361a are +/- 1.5 db down to 32 hz (we know Genelec to be accurate thanks to Amir) and this speaker is +/- 15 db down to 32 hz.
It is look like people don't like facts and like how a speaker "feels".
16k$ that does not cover the low and the score gives a fair description for what it deliver. The Genelec is the "budget" option for only 10k$ .
I would expect that a speaker that makes Genelec looks like cheap speakers to measure better.
 

andreasmaaan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,476
Likes
8,525
Thanks :) I agree 100% with the text:
The first solution is to flush mount the monitors into a hard wall (creating a very large baffle) eliminating the rear wall reflections and therefore cancellations. Another possibility is to place the monitor very close to the wall minimising the gap. This raises the lowest cancellation frequency so high that the monitor has become forward-directing, and the cancellation no longer occurs. Remember that the low frequency boost should be compensated for when the monitor is mounted close to the wall (up to +6 dB gain).

Alternatively, the monitor could be moved considerably further away from the wall to eliminate back reflections. The cancellation frequency will be lowered below the low frequency cut-off of the monitor. When the monitor is moved away from the walls, it also moves close to the listener. This increases the direct sound level and reduces the reflected sound level which improves the sound quality.
But not the illustration, which indeed contradicts the text:

1605116588390.png
 

q3cpma

Major Contributor
Joined
May 22, 2019
Messages
2,091
Likes
2,559
Location
France
Thanks :) I agree 100% with the text:


But not the illustration, which indeed contradicts the text:

View attachment 92818
Huh? It's matching, except that the illustration doesn't include the "very far from wall" case.

EDIT: funnily, there's the complete version a bit later
 

oivavoi

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 12, 2017
Messages
1,506
Likes
1,245
Location
Oslo, Norway
So this speaker isn't too bad. It only fell .16 short of the JBL 308 mkII in the formula for scoring. Looks like the 308 goes flatter into the bass a ways.

If you add a sub to the Revel it slightly exceeds the JBL 308 score.

So yes, that formula still bothers me.
I would be really interested in a proper blind test between the JBL 308 mkII and this speaker! Even though I assume the 328be would come out on top, I wouldn't bet my house on it.
 

F1308

Senior Member
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
378
Likes
212
Congratulations...as many as 100 at the least.
You work that hard because you are already retired ?

And now, the cheaper, the better, for DACs; the taller the better, for loudspeakers.
 

Sancus

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 30, 2018
Messages
977
Likes
2,185
Location
Canada
apologize, already asked... when you @hardisj will help us understanding how to use multiple subs (cardioid setup with dsp or simply placed in room corner)? or leave us in the hands of mighty Dirac fix all?
nothing on the web, many would love it... many thumbs up, ;)
There is actually plenty of information on the web about how to do this using free software and a miniDSP.

Multi-Sub Optimizer
Tutorial using REW + MSO + MiniDSP.

It's far from simple and not for the faint of heart though. There is a reason so many people are interested in automated bass management. The manual process requires many hours of work and a good understanding of the tools.
 

infinitesymphony

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 21, 2018
Messages
779
Likes
1,183
IIRC, the Genelec measurement there is taken at about 85dB vs 96dB for the Revel.
If that's true, the distortion for the Genelec would be even higher at 96 dB. But isn't that top aqua line showing the fundamental frequency at around 96 dB in both images (link)?

The illustration effectively says "Do not place your monitor more than 60cm from the wall".

And, indeed, if this is what @stevenswall was referring to when he said:



then his statement also contradicts Genelec's text and agrees with its illustration.

I suspect he may have been referring to something else, however, as there is no mention of measurements in this document.
Genelec have changed their illustrations for distance from the wall a few times and I think what's there now is a bit confusing. Here's what their guide used to look like:

Genelec Wall & Floor Placement.PNG
 

Sancus

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 30, 2018
Messages
977
Likes
2,185
Location
Canada
If that's true, the distortion for the Genelec would be even higher at 96 dB. But isn't that top aqua line showing the fundamental frequency at around 96 dB in both images (link)?
The 8341A is pretty small and has a ~6" woofer. Genelec isn't doing any kind of high excursion sorcery like Devialet or anything, so it's unlikely it can stay low THD in bass at 96dB.

The 8361A would be the fair comparison. Based on the fact it's 3% at 30hz and 100dB, I think it may be competitive. It is a bit tough to compare these two different types of graphs.
 

tuga

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 5, 2020
Messages
2,260
Likes
2,010
Location
Oxford, England
It makes no sense to me why Revel would design a tower speaker with 3x 8” woofers to start rolling off bass at 100hz, unless there’s something audible we are not seeing in the measurements here.
Are we not seing lower distortion at high SPLs?
 

HooStat

Senior Member
Joined
May 11, 2020
Messages
349
Likes
258
Location
Calabasas, CA
No one has said that they cannot trust the measurements but agglomerating them into a single index, imho, is arbitrary.
It is not arbitrary in any reasonable definition of arbitrary. In fact, this shows the value of the score -- it is highlighting the measurement issue in the bass, and it may lead to a better understanding of how to measure bass. As I have said many times, the score is no better or worse than any other review. It reflects a weighted average of the inputs in the same way that any review ends up with an opinion. Its advantage is that it can be used to compare speakers on the same metric, and will be more consistent than any human reviewer. Its downside is that measurement issues can make the score misleading.

If, by "arbitrary" you meant that there is variability and that it does not reflect absolute truth, you are correct. And again, this review is a perfect example of that as well. I think most people believe the speaker sounds better than its score.
 
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
4
Likes
8
That's not the case with subs either.

The other thing with subs is too much bass. When watching movies I am game for that. But with music it can get too much with some music, and not with others. Hooked up a sub to our living room TV system and had to disconnect it after a few hours since the commercials had the most bass!

Not saying don't use a sub but you are in for a lot of work to get them to work well.
I do believe that subwoofer volume settings are not best seen as "set and forget." I have an SVS SB2000 Pro (music system only, not home theater) that allows on the fly volume adjustment during playback via bluetooth and I often find myself adjusting the subwoofer volume up to +- 4 db depending on the perceived sub-bass response not being consistent with bass/mid-bass levels.
 

andreasmaaan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,476
Likes
8,525
If that's true, the distortion for the Genelec would be even higher at 96 dB. But isn't that top aqua line showing the fundamental frequency at around 96 dB in both images (link)?


Genelec have changed their illustrations for distance from the wall a few times and I think what's there now is a bit confusing. Here's what their guide used to look like:

View attachment 92821
Interesting. I don't agree with the specific distances shown in this most recent illustration, but the gist is correct (i.e. either place it either very close or quite far).

If that's true, the distortion for the Genelec would be even higher at 96 dB. But isn't that top aqua line showing the fundamental frequency at around 96 dB in both images (link)?
I guess only @amirm knows for sure, but I believe the Genelec distortion measurement was made at either 85dB or 86dB (the trace at c. 96dB at the top is arbitrary, and simply there to show the relative levels of the harmonics).
 

Attachments

infinitesymphony

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 21, 2018
Messages
779
Likes
1,183
It is not arbitrary in any reasonable definition of arbitrary. In fact, this shows the value of the score -- it is highlighting the measurement issue in the bass, and it may lead to a better understanding of how to measure bass. As I have said many times, the score is no better or worse than any other review. It reflects a weighted average of the inputs in the same way that any review ends up with an opinion. Its advantage is that it can be used to compare speakers on the same metric, and will be more consistent than any human reviewer. Its downside is that measurement issues can make the score misleading.

If, by "arbitrary" you meant that there is variability and that it does not reflect absolute truth, you are correct. And again, this review is a perfect example of that as well. I think most people believe the speaker sounds better than its score.
With the increasing prevalence and availability of system-wide PEQ options, we're seeing that the preference score can be gamed by targeting frequency response. The Revel F328Be without EQ score is 5.5, while the Edifier R1280T with EQ score is 5.8 even though its distortion, directivity, and max SPL measurements are all substantially worse.
 

ernestcarl

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
1,093
Likes
742
Location
Canada
The first issue people run into is exactly this that only one subwoofer is used. I'd say start at four and work your way up from there.
You sometimes can get away with only having one sub depending on your use case, placement, and room acoustics scenario -- achieving that isn't easy, of course -- and not always possible. But I have posted enough of my own measurements here in the forum that does demonstrate that... telling others who aspire great bass to start with four subs from the get go and up onwards else they won't be able to have appreciable good bass when watching movies is a bit excessive, IMO.
 

infinitesymphony

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 21, 2018
Messages
779
Likes
1,183
Interesting. I don't agree with the specific distances shown in this most recent illustration, but the gist is correct (i.e. either place it either very close or quite far).
After doing a bit more digging, we have three recommendations from Genelec:

1. Place the speaker between 5cm-60cm or 1.1+m. (Current recommendation.)
2. Place the speaker between 5cm-1m or 2.2+m. (~2011 recommendation.)
3. In their YouTube video about it, they say offhand that if placing at a distance, you will need at least 4m to get the cancellation dip below 20 Hz. (2019)
 

Similar threads

Top Bottom