Reliability and build quality of Chinese Vs. Western Amps and DACs? Can you reliably get 15+ years out of a Topping Stack? Or SMSL? Singxer?

[Blumlein 88]

Thank you for your feedback.

I've narrowed my list to:

• Schiit Modius E + Jotunheim 2 ($850)
• SMSL HO200 / DO200 ($1000)
• Topping L70 / E70 Velvet ($1130)
• SMSL H300 / D300 ($1250)

The JDS products are out because they have no matching power amps, or ways to switch off the preamp output when using headphones, and the RME product is beyond my budget, even if I stretch said budget.

The RME is $50 more. With their rep of long term support on software and hardware, that is $50 well spent. You can buy the RME in the USA for $1299.

RME ADI-2 DAC FS 2-channel DA Converter

2-channel Digital-to-analog Converter with SteadyClock FS, Extreme Power Headphone Output, Super Low Noise IEM Output, AutoDark Feature, and Remote Control

www.sweetwater.com

 

[Quinton595]

The RME is $50 more. With their rep of long term support on software and hardware, that is $50 well spent. You can buy the RME in the USA for $1299.

RME ADI-2 DAC FS 2-channel DA Converter

2-channel Digital-to-analog Converter with SteadyClock FS, Extreme Power Headphone Output, Super Low Noise IEM Output, AutoDark Feature, and Remote Control

www.sweetwater.com

Sorry, I should have mentioned, the prices I cited were landed prices in $CAD. The RME, at $1299, comes to $2005 CAD, landed.

 

[Quinton595]

From that list, I'd go with the Jotunheim, though if you get it with the internal DAC it will be less expensive. Schiit revised and improved the internal DAC card and it now has similar performance to the Modius. Then you have an AIO (all in one) solution. And with an internal power supply, no wall-warts. This is what I use at work. The only drawback is that the digital input is USB only. Put differently, the advantage to the Modius is that you also get SPDIF (coax & toslink) inputs.

PS: if you're willing to spend $1200 then the RME is a no-brainer. Not only the best in build quality & support, but also with useful built-in DSP functions. It is a step above anything else in your list. I see an RME ADI-2 FS on Amazon for $948, which is a steal. "Renewed - Excellent" means it's used, probably returned from another customer. His loss is your gain!

Thank you for your vote.

It seems I actually made a mistake, and the current JDS Element Mk III actually DOES have a toggle for pre-amp output.

If I toss the JDS element back into the race, would you still recommend the schiit stack?

 

[JeremyFife]

Seems to me that the things you want come at a cost. It probably makes sense to go, reasonably, cheap and accept that it may not last (it might), or spend more for RME

 

[Blumlein 88]

Sorry, I should have mentioned, the prices I cited were landed prices in $CAD. The RME, at $1299, comes to $2005 CAD, landed.

Buy one second hand. I'm pretty comfortable buying 2nd hand when the product is very well made which the RME is. My Babyface was purchased 2nd hand.

 

[CedarX]

Buy one second hand. I'm pretty comfortable buying 2nd hand when the product is very well made which the RME is. My Babyface was purchased 2nd hand.

Completely second that: the OP is about getting the most reliable product, capable of lasting 15-20 years. 1 or 2 years of previous usage eliminates the infant failures, and probably improves the likelihood to get 15-20 years.

 

[Quinton595]

Completely second that: the OP is about getting the most reliable product, capable of lasting 15-20 years. 1 or 2 years of previous usage eliminates the infant failures, and probably improves the likelihood to get 15-20 years.

An interesting way of looking at it, and you're probably right.

I don't quite know where I stand on the ADI-2.

I know it reviews excellently, and German engineering is, well, beyond the need for elaboration.

I truly hate the way it looks, but as others have said, you can't have everything so long as your funds are finite, gotta make some concessions somewhere....

The used market seems to contain Adi-2's for around $900 USD, which equates to a landed price at my door of approximately $1400 CAD. Definitely better than $2005 CAD new, but still pricey. I don't know if $1400 CAD for an Adi-2 is really justified, compared to, say, the JDS Labs Element III Mk 2 for $700 CAD.

In any case, You have all been excellent help in this thread. I greatly appreciate you all taking the time to voice your opinions. I could not find a way to add a poll to this thread, so I have created one final post on ASR, where I invite you all to cast a quick vote.

[ POLL ] [ Final Thread, I Promise ] - Which of the following stacks would you say is the overall best, most reliable, and therefore worth its cost?

Hello everyone, I promise this is my final post. You have all been very kind, and I don't want to take advantage of the community by spamming threads (more than I already have). With the community's help, I have narrowed a choice of amp and DAC stacks to a few brands, For use with Sennheiser...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Thank you all again for everything, it means a lot to me.

 

[MRC01]

...I don't quite know where I stand on the ADI-2.
I know it reviews excellently, and German engineering is, well, beyond the need for elaboration.
I truly hate the way it looks, but as others have said, you can't have everything so long as your funds are finite, gotta make some concessions somewhere....
...

Looks, schmooks. No matter how good a piece of equipment looks, if it doesn't perform well then you'll eventually start to resent it. And if it does perform well, you'll come to love it no matter what it looks like, especially over the years. In that sense, ugliness is a badge of merit that says "tools, not toys", your audio quest has passed beyond first impressions.

BTW, this advice has served me well in other areas of life too...

 

[CedarX]

Is this some

Thank you all again for everything, it means a lot to me.

I think you may want to know that an ass%$# is plagiarizing you on Head-Fi and has published the same exact poll:

[ POLL ] [ Final Thread, I Promise ] - Which of the following stacks would you say is the most reliable, the most well-manufactured, and therefore worth its own price? (Prices are in landed $CAD)

Hello everyone, I promise this is my final post. You have all been very kind, and I don't want to take advantage of the community by spamming threads (more than I already have). With the community's help, I have narrowed a choice of amp and DAC stacks to a few brands, For use with Sennheiser...

www.head-fi.org

Was it some form of trolling, where your only purpose was to generate the most replies from Major Contributors (who I have a lot of respect for...)?

 

[Quinton595]

Is this some

I think you may want to know that an ass%$# is plagiarizing you on Head-Fi and has published the same exact poll:

[ POLL ] [ Final Thread, I Promise ] - Which of the following stacks would you say is the most reliable, the most well-manufactured, and therefore worth its own price? (Prices are in landed $CAD)

Hello everyone, I promise this is my final post. You have all been very kind, and I don't want to take advantage of the community by spamming threads (more than I already have). With the community's help, I have narrowed a choice of amp and DAC stacks to a few brands, For use with Sennheiser...

www.head-fi.org

Was it some form of trolling, where your only purpose was to generate the most replies from Major Contributors (who I have a lot of respect for...)?

No, that is me. I have always maintained threads on ASR, Head-Fi, and Reddit.

The three communities are very different from one another, as each values different things. ASR values objectivity and measurements, Head-Fi values subjectivity and experiences, and Reddit values frugality and is more of an "everyman" forum. Each has provided interesting and unique insight to the various threads and questions I have posted over the last few weeks.

While the three forums often disagree strongly with each other, there are also areas in which all three forums achieve total consensus. It is this consensus that is most useful. By cross-referencing these three bodies of audio enthusiasts against each other, I am able to more rigorously identify what is actually true.

For example, while Head-Fi is very strongly in the camp of believing that different amps and DACs can impart totally different sound signatures to a given pair of headphones, with different "synergies" and such, ASR tends to be a lot more skeptical of that, so long as we're talking about competently-made products with good SINADs and other such measurements. However, both forums agree strongly that "balanced" audio is little more than a marketing gimmick for most use-cases, and that any well-produced piece of source equipment should run just fine, whether balanced, or single-ended.

All three forums have been very useful to me.

 

[MRC01]

... However, both forums agree strongly that "balanced" audio is little more than a marketing gimmick for most use-cases, and that any well-produced piece of source equipment should run just fine, whether balanced, or single-ended. ...

You won't find many engineers here or anywhere else claiming that balanced audio is a marketing gimmick. It's solid engineering, eliminates the possibility of ground loops, helps immunize against noise that cables can pick up, and increases S/N ratio. However, it is also true that it adds complexity and cost, and for line level signals, in most modern houses with properly built electrical systems, it can be considered unnecessary or overkill, as any well engineered piece of equipment should run just fine, whether balanced or single ended.

In short, just because most people probably don't need it, doesn't make it a marketing gimmick.

 

[MacClintock]

JDS labs Headphone amp/pre and separate JDS DAC?

If I were into the game for just a headphone set-up, I would go for this, metal shape, SOTA measurements, cheap, US made, if you care for that, really nothing to complain.

 

[Great Sun Jester]

Definitely not. It is made in the same place, from the same components. Recently, several owners here had to send failed devices back for warranty replacement. And this was only after a short period of acquisition.

The difference between the two is Schiit has the best customer service known to man and the Chinese stuff have the same failure rate if not more and getting service is what I would term as a real pain in the butt.

 

[Quinton595]

You won't find many engineers here or anywhere else claiming that balanced audio is a marketing gimmick. It's solid engineering, eliminates the possibility of ground loops, helps immunize against noise that cables can pick up, and increases S/N ratio. However, it is also true that it adds complexity and cost, and for line level signals, in most modern houses with properly built electrical systems, it can be considered unnecessary or overkill, as any well engineered piece of equipment should run just fine, whether balanced or single ended.

In short, just because most people probably don't need it, doesn't make it a marketing gimmick.

You are correct, and I should have chosen my wording more carefully. I didnt mean gimmick in the sense of "not based on real science", but rather, like you said, simply that most people probably don't need it.

 

[Quinton595]

If I were into the game for just a headphone set-up, I would go for this, metal shape, SOTA measurements, cheap, US made, if you care for that, really nothing to complain.

Yes, I am seriously considering the JDS Element III Mk. 2, now that I know it has a preamp/headphone switch for use with a power amp and speakers. In its boosted configuration, it should have enough power for the HD800s with a - 15 dB preamp EQ, at 115dB peak output.

I've included it as an option in the poll I linked, accordingly.

 

[Esprit]

Do you think Schiit is more reliable than these chinese brands?

When Philips SACD players broke, Philips couldn't fix them - they became doorstops.

 

[johny_2000]

The difference between the two is Schiit has the best customer service known to man and the Chinese stuff have the same failure rate if not more and getting service is what I would term as a real pain in the butt.

You are right. The main difference between the two is local customer support with excellent response and hassle-free warranty.
Personally, as an electronics engineer, I prefer first time quality over any other option, but it is what it is. I always have to pay double or quadruple for my visions.

 

[Quinton595]

You are right. The main difference between the two is local customer support with excellent response and hassle-free warranty.

At this point, thanks to everyone's feedback, I've narrowed it to either the Modius and Jotunheim 2, or the JDs Element III Mk2.

Don't know how to decide between them. Very good performance from both.

 

[Barrelhouse Solly]

Maybe my experience is atypical. I've been buying audio equipment since the mid '60s. I've never had a big budget but I've spent some money. I had a Sansui receiver I bought new in the '70s for around $400 die after about 5 years. I had a Marantz AVR and its successor an Onkyo both from the oughts that lasted no more than 3 years each. They weren't high end but they weren't bottom of the line. The bottom of the line Denon that followed those two is in my living room hooked up to the TV. The most durable piece of equipment was an Onkyo receiver from the early '90s that I retired from the living room in the early oughts but used in my office for several years after that.

It seems to me that gear made with modern decent quality components on a well made PCB should have a long lifetime. If it doesn't it's either poor assembly or second rate components.

 

[johny_2000]

I don't have a hot-air-rework station, so I can't repair SMDs, only through-hole components, and even then, only if they're spaced far enough away from other delicate components that I can get my soldering iron in there.

For this, and other reasons, I'd still prefer that which is reliable over that which is easily serviceable. Prevention is always better than remediation, right?

The serviceability of multilayer printed circuit boards of recent years with 90%+ SMD components and BGA chips is practically zero.
You initially make a choice of quality, or throw it away in case of breakdown after warranty.

Here's what I consider a 100% serviceable board: