Reel to Reel question... Not what you think...

[jcr159]

I have a bunch of Super 8 film with sound that I'm capturing and digitizing for archive. It mostly all has sound.

Long story short, the only way I can find to pull the sound is the magnetic head in the projectors. They all have a lot of drift. (wow/flutter) This makes syncing audio later a real pain.

It occurred to me that Reel to Reel recorder/players likely have a small enough amount of wow/flutter that I can get a good capture (better than any super 8 projector at least), and sync with my editing suite.

Does anyone know if a reel to reel unit would be able to read the magnetic audio track on a piece of Super 8 film?

Thanks!
-j

 

[DVDdoug]

That seems very difficult...

You'll have to adjust the speed. (You can do that digitally after recording.) "

The width is different so you'll probably have to modify the tape machine. And you'd probably have to modify the tape head mounting to align it to the magnetic track.

I have no idea if film uses NAB tape EQ and even if it does, that will be thrown-off when you change the speed.

Some of the wow & flutter may be from the camera.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I don't think so. The width of the magnetic track is wrong as is the speed at which it was recorded vs RTR.

I am assuming you want to record audio separately and then match it up later with video, is this where you are headed with this? If so how are you capturing the video? You should be able to use SMPTE time codes in most DAWs to help you line up the video. I have not done this, maybe I'm missing some little detail that means it won't work for your purposes.

 

[robwpdx]

There is software for correcting audio, some specifically for film.

 

[sarumbear]

I have a bunch of Super 8 film with sound that I'm capturing and digitizing for archive. It mostly all has sound.

Long story short, the only way I can find to pull the sound is the magnetic head in the projectors. They all have a lot of drift. (wow/flutter) This makes syncing audio later a real pain.

It occurred to me that Reel to Reel recorder/players likely have a small enough amount of wow/flutter that I can get a good capture (better than any super 8 projector at least), and sync with my editing suite.

Does anyone know if a reel to reel unit would be able to read the magnetic audio track on a piece of Super 8 film?

Thanks!
-j

Use a specialist archive company. They customised players to eliminate these issues.

 

[jcr159]

I don't think so. The width of the magnetic track is wrong as is the speed at which it was recorded vs RTR.

I am assuming you want to record audio separately and then match it up later with video, is this where you are headed with this? If so how are you capturing the video? You should be able to use SMPTE time codes in most DAWs to help you line up the video. I have not done this, maybe I'm missing some little detail that means it won't work for your purposes.

thanks for the responses...

short version: there are lots of ways to capture the film image literally a frame at a time. think lots of pictures using a dslr, or raspberry pi setup, etc. this doesn't capture audio since the track is magnetic.

the only devices that read that magnetic track back I can find are the projectors themselves. other than a few very, very expensive units (they don't make them anymore after all...) they don't have very stable playback speed. most fluctuate .5 to a whole frame per second up/down. the only other way to get sync'd audio and video is to do telecine (video record the film playing back in real time). now the audio syncs, but since there's drift, you now get extra frames or dropped frames where the shutter speed and projector speed don't line up. Not to mention the quality of video is a lot tougher to match than frame by frame. and the audio still drifts out of sync as the frame captures aren't sync'd.

that's why I'm looking to see if another device that is much more stable could be used to read the audio track. if the playback speed is different, that's irrelevant. I can get the speed correct in post. if there are fluctuations, then i can't just process the sound in post. i'd need to cut it up so to speak.

yeah, transferring film with magnetic sound to digital archive is way harder than it should be, lol

 

[jcr159]

Use a specialist archive company. They customised players to eliminate these issues.

fair point... I have over 5k feet of film to archive.... at several $ per foot, I can find other ways... Not to mention, if you want color correction and post processing you need to add more to the cost. pulling the sound is quite a bit more cost as well. I'm not looking for perfect (the machines they use are literally the cost of a new car), but something better than a 40 year old cheap projector with worn parts can muster...

I do appreciate all the ideas and engagement! thanks! I know it's slightly off topic for the forum as well...

 

[kemmler3D]

You could 3D print reels with the correct width and lateral alignment for the film, no problem, so physically getting the film from one reel, through the machine, and onto the other reel should be no big deal if you are willing to mess with that, or have someone mess with it for you.

I agree that adjusting the tape heads to correctly pick up the audio on the film might be a challenge... the width of the audio track on the film is going to be much narrower than a typical 1/4" tape, right? So I wonder if it's going to work right at all even if you can physically get everything into the right position. Worth a shot IMO, but I'd be pessimistic about sound quality...

 

[August West]

Check out a program called Captstan

 

[sarumbear]

fair point... I have over 5k feet of film to archive.... at several $ per foot, I can find other ways... Not to mention, if you want color correction and post processing you need to add more to the cost. pulling the sound is quite a bit more cost as well. I'm not looking for perfect (the machines they use are literally the cost of a new car), but something better than a 40 year old cheap projector with worn parts can muster...

I do appreciate all the ideas and engagement! thanks! I know it's slightly off topic for the forum as well...

Maybe using a good condition Elmo ST1200, which is one of the best projectors for audio quality. If you have the budget then blowing the films to 16mm is a solution. 16mm projectors have pretty decent audio sections.

 

[jcr159]

You could 3D print reels with the correct width and lateral alignment for the film, no problem, so physically getting the film from one reel, through the machine, and onto the other reel should be no big deal if you are willing to mess with that, or have someone mess with it for you.

I agree that adjusting the tape heads to correctly pick up the audio on the film might be a challenge... the width of the audio track on the film is going to be much narrower than a typical 1/4" tape, right? So I wonder if it's going to work right at all even if you can physically get everything into the right position. Worth a shot IMO, but I'd be pessimistic about sound quality...

Interesting idea…. Most of the image capture side is 3d printed and essentially uses an arduino to control a stepper motor to move the film, and trigger the camera to snap the frame.

I wonder if I could reprogram to use the stepper motor to pull the film over a scavenged audio head

 

[kemmler3D]

I wonder if I could reprogram to use the stepper motor to pull the film over a scavenged audio head

Probably, if the issue is pitch stability then the problem is in the motors, not the heads, right? So if you are able to set it up so you feed the film with a better motor, it should help. Since you don't care about audio playback speed, you can just set it up for whatever speed the motor can do most precisely, capture the audio, and go from there.

You could actually just take apart a projector and replace the motor with the stepper, maybe?

 

[jcr159]

Probably, if the issue is pitch stability then the problem is in the motors, not the heads, right? So if you are able to set it up so you feed the film with a better motor, it should help. Since you don't care about audio playback speed, you can just set it up for whatever speed the motor can do most precisely, capture the audio, and go from there.

You could actually just take apart a projector and replace the motor with the stepper, maybe?

No I’m in another rabbit hole, lol. I wonder what the signal level is coming off the head…. I’m sure the projectors don’t have great pre-amp sections. I wonder iff a budget phono amp would work as a replacement…

 

[August West]

Capstan addresses pitch plus any wow and flutter. It's been used by legit studios and works on music and that has made the releases of otherwise not possible. Just google capstan software. Its expensive...they only rent out the software. But they give you a chance to try it and you decide if it works. From what I've heard it does.

 

[kemmler3D]

a budget phono amp

I wouldn't F with phono because it has RIAA EQ correction, but I wonder if maybe a mic pre would have sufficient low-noise gain? Figure out how to wire the audio internals to XLR and see what happens ...

 

[Blumlein 88]

I wouldn't F with phono because it has RIAA EQ correction, but I wonder if maybe a mic pre would have sufficient low-noise gain? Figure out how to wire the audio internals to XLR and see what happens ...

This is a good idea, using a mic preamp. My thinking would be even the electronics are not the bottleneck. My thinking is the read head is the bottleneck to the quality that comes off the magnetic strip. Still the better projectors claimed 40-13,000 hz response. Some sources say typically you'd get more like 50-7000 hz.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Don't know if you've seen this Super 8 scanner. Apparently not made any longer, but some are available. Takes about an hour per minute of film time apparently. Does the film part only not the sound. What you have put together may be as good or better.

Reflecta Super 8 / Normal 8 Scanner

With the Reflecta Super 8 and Normal 8 Scanner you can digitize old films. You can choose between standard 8 and super 8 movies. The film is scanned frame by frame at a rate of two frames per second.

www.photospecialist.com

 

[jcr159]

I wouldn't F with phono because it has RIAA EQ correction, but I wonder if maybe a mic pre would have sufficient low-noise gain? Figure out how to wire the audio internals to XLR and see what happens ...

Now we’re cooking with gas!

 

[jcr159]

Don't know if you've seen this Super 8 scanner. Apparently not made any longer, but some are available. Takes about an hour per minute of film time apparently. Does the film part only not the sound. What you have put together may be as good or better.

Reflecta Super 8 / Normal 8 Scanner

With the Reflecta Super 8 and Normal 8 Scanner you can digitize old films. You can choose between standard 8 and super 8 movies. The film is scanned frame by frame at a rate of two frames per second.

www.photospecialist.com

Yep, these are the “mass market “ units that our custom solutions are crushing…. The only solutions commercially available that do better start in the $5k range. The main or issue with these units (known collectively as Wolverine units) is high compression, crappy white balance, and output that can’t really be corrected…. Think high compression jpeg. But without sound, it’s still the same problem. Thanks for the help/link!

 

[jcr159]

This is a good idea, using a mic preamp. My thinking would be even the electronics are not the bottleneck. My thinking is the read head is the bottleneck to the quality that comes off the magnetic strip. Still the better projectors claimed 40-13,000 hz response. Some sources say typically you'd get more like 50-7000 hz.

Yeah, better projector pickups were better, but without getting a quartz locked timing unit, the motors and drive parts have enough slip that it shows up in the audio…. Especially when syncing a perfectly captured video sequence it’s actually more obvious.