Question about upgrading sound from AVR

[antcollinet]

This is a good example of how reality is different with a real load (assuming C50/C70 do not differ significantly). A purely ohmic and static test load has nothing to do with real world behaviour. Here we are only looking at one operating point!

And yet the B&W is a pretty benign load. Dipping no lower than 5ohm, and the two places it does that are both at around 0 degree phase.

No amp will have a problem with that - and so far you've provided no evidence that the Marantz amps are in any way inferior to other amps in any case.

Simply banging your own personal crusade drum without a shred of evidence. And doubling down when you are called on it. Fortunatly I don't need to see any more of this nonsense.

 

[pogo]

And yet the B&W is a pretty benign load. Dipping no lower than 5ohm

According to B&W, this does not seem to be correct:

• Nominal impedance: 8Ω (minimum 4.0Ω)
• Recommended amplifier power: 30W - 100W into 8Ω on unclipped programme
• Sensitivity: 84dB spl (2.83Vrms, 1m)

The Marantz is not well suited for this load and a more potent amplifier will show more detail and control.

 

[ban25]

First of all thanks to everyone for weighing in, based on all the feedback I have done some more testing. Unfortunately I don't have mics or any good equipment to do a proper measuring however. I have found something interesting. This time I tested purely using the the B&W 707 speakers as I still find these to be more spacious sounding regardless of the source.

In contrast to my previous testing I didn't play back the track directly through the Sonos app but used Roon and used airplay protocol for playing back the same track to both the Sonos amp and Marantz (cutting out the Sonos port). To my surprise I started to find both amp's starting to sound much more similar with perhaps the Sonos still having a bit more full bodied sound and perhaps a bit more forward sounding but overall much more evenly matched. I later also tried airplaying to the Sonos port and found the sound to be less contrasting then before but perhaps still sounding a bit better when played directly through airplay to the Marantz. I'm not sure what made the difference perhaps the way Sonos handles tracks when played directly from source rather then receiving an airplay stream are a bit different either way I'm more convinced that the amp's are fine though I did notice I had to set the volume level much higher on the Marantz in Roon to get a similar sound that I got from the Sonos amp with a lower volume setting but that only makes sense so I might still go for a tiny class D amp as suggested to if it makes any further difference (is the difference in Ohm load audible?).

Lastly a bit off topic but am I crazy for liking the B&W much more? I've seen the KEF LS50 Meta almost universally praised as great speakers whereas B&W speakers gather quite a lot of criticism and while I have to admit that when I play back vinyl there is definitely a hissing issue (sibilance) they do well with most others playback situations (especially clarity with vocal and dialogue is amazing). If the sound wasn't that bright I'd say there's no contest here, but I think perhaps that may be fixed with a phono pre amp or tone controls?

also last edit: yes it's indeed the same amp
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/review-and-measurements-of-sonos-amp.6957/

The only difference you perceive is level. Since you don't have any gear to properly level-match (e.g. an $8 SPL meter), you could try using a smart phone app.

The "hiss" that you detect with vinyl is just a limitation of the recording and the medium, it has nothing to do with which speakers you are using.

I don't know about universal praise. Context is important. Is the LS50 Meta great for near-field listening and desktop applications? I would say so. Is it good for Home Theater or full-range playback at high SPLs? Not so much. The Metas are distortion limited at high SPLs in the low-end according to the review here on ASR, and that matches my own experience with them:

KEF LS50 Meta Review (Speaker)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the KEF LS50 Meta bookshelf coaxial speaker. It was kindly purchased new by a member and drop shipped to me and costs US $1,500 for a pair. The LS50 Meta comes in different colors and I must say, it looks stunning in white: You could sell it as...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[antcollinet]

The only difference you perceive is level. Since you don't have any gear to properly level-match (e.g. an $8 SPL meter), you could try using a smart phone app.

The "hiss" that you detect with vinyl is just a limitation of the recording and the medium, it has nothing to do with which speakers you are using.

I don't know about universal praise. Context is important. Is the LS50 Meta great for near-field listening and desktop applications? I would say so. Is it good for Home Theater or full-range playback at high SPLs? Not so much. The Metas are distortion limited at high SPLs in the low-end according to the review here on ASR, and that matches my own experience with them:

KEF LS50 Meta Review (Speaker)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the KEF LS50 Meta bookshelf coaxial speaker. It was kindly purchased new by a member and drop shipped to me and costs US $1,500 for a pair. The LS50 Meta comes in different colors and I must say, it looks stunning in white: You could sell it as...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Even calibrated SPL meters are not good enough for level matching to eliminate percieved differences. Phones and $8 versions are even less capable.

Level matching needs to be done at the speaker terminals using a volt meter and a test tone.

 

[ban25]

Even calibrated SPL meters are not good enough for level matching to eliminate percieved differences. Phones and $8 versions are even less capable.

Level matching needs to be done at the speaker terminals using a volt meter and a test tone.

Yeah I was going to suggest that, but I assume the poster does not have a meter.

 

[antcollinet]

Yeah I was going to suggest that, but I assume the poster does not have a meter.

Even if so - that doesn't mean using an SPL meter is worth doing. It risks innaccurate level matching resulting in percieved differences that don't exist.

 

[bgk84]

The only difference you perceive is level. Since you don't have any gear to properly level-match (e.g. an $8 SPL meter), you could try using a smart phone app.

The "hiss" that you detect with vinyl is just a limitation of the recording and the medium, it has nothing to do with which speakers you are using.

I don't know about universal praise. Context is important. Is the LS50 Meta great for near-field listening and desktop applications? I would say so. Is it good for Home Theater or full-range playback at high SPLs? Not so much. The Metas are distortion limited at high SPLs in the low-end according to the review here on ASR, and that matches my own experience with them:

KEF LS50 Meta Review (Speaker)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the KEF LS50 Meta bookshelf coaxial speaker. It was kindly purchased new by a member and drop shipped to me and costs US $1,500 for a pair. The LS50 Meta comes in different colors and I must say, it looks stunning in white: You could sell it as...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Thanks I think you might be right after doing some more testing it might be mostly volume related issues though as I don't really have a/b setup and I need to keep unplugging and replugging the speakers without any serious gear I would feel bad almost to report back on just my "hearing" experiences. There are some things that caught my interest though. I often hear the argument of people stating that AVR's are pretty bad for music and it's worth to invest in a separate amp as I said I think I can still hear a slight difference between the Sonos Amp and Marantz but if we're mostly talking volume level differences and perhaps distortion, what makes the suggestion for stereo amp's more appealing? Are the only major considerations DAC/DSP? Also what would be a suggested matching for the Cinema 70s for music or would the difference be marginal ?

 

[antcollinet]

Thanks I think you might be right after doing some more testing it might be mostly volume related issues though as I don't really have a/b setup and I need to keep unplugging and replugging the speakers without any serious gear I would feel bad almost to report back on just my "hearing" experiences. There are some things that caught my interest though. I often hear the argument of people stating that AVR's are pretty bad for music and it's worth to invest in a separate amp as I said I think I can still hear a slight difference between the Sonos Amp and Marantz but if we're mostly talking volume level differences and perhaps distortion, what makes the suggestion for stereo amp's more appealing? Are the only major considerations DAC/DSP? Also what would be a suggested matching for the Cinema 70s for music or would the difference be marginal ?

"AVRs are bad for music" is just more audiophile folklore. The DACS inside the current crop don't measure quite as well as many exteranal DACs but you'll still be using the AVR DAC in any case. The amps are pretty much just as good as stereo amps and any difference is inaudible for almost everyone in real world listening.

So the difference will be marginal or inaudible even between the marantz and any external amp, unless you actually need more power. IE you can't get the volume you need without clipping distortion.

If you need more power then go with something significantly more - like a higher power hypex or purify. Doubling the power is only like a 30% increase in percieved volume.