Quality speakers for classical music with high output/volume

[excelsius]

First off, I would like to ask ASR members to not attack the OP for his inexperience or not knowing what he wants. That is NORMAL for anybody new to this hobby.

Not a dealbreaker. You will likely get sound that you will be happy with, if your requirements are only that it will play loud. But you will not be getting performance that you have paid good money for, which is why so many of us are against the idea. The reasons why have been elaborated many times in this thread, so I will not rehash.

What you say is true. My gf came down last night to listen to music with me, and she listens to the cacophony that they call K-pop (Korean pop music). She listened to some of my classical pieces after my latest improvements to my DSP tuning, and she said "wow it sounds so real!". Then she wanted to listen to her K-pop and she was immediately disappointed. She complained that the singers don't seem to be in front of her any more and it doesn't sound real. I also pointed out a lot of things that are missing - like, no sense that it was recorded in a room, all the voices sound artificial, and that she had to turn the volume a lot lower to get the same SPL (because of the loudness wars). And I don't know if it would be even possible to hear distortion in heavy metal even if there was 100% distortion because it already sounds so distorted to me anyway. We listen to real instruments and if something is off with the tonality or timbre, it is much easier to hear because we know what instruments are supposed to sound like.

Exactly. Some of the music I tested, I didn't hear distortion up to 100%

If you have a system that has an even frequency response and follows the ISO226 equal loudness curve, you do not need to crank it up. I listen at 75dB with ISO226 compensation* applied, and it sounds great. I find most people boost the volume because they intuitively know that the freq response is off at low volumes, or because their systems produce a lumpy freq response so they have to up the volume to hear what they want to hear. It might also be your preference to listen loud.

* this refers to how the freq response sensitivity of your ears changes with volume. Lower volumes need more bass and treble to sound the same volume.

I can see some useful applications here. For example, if I'm doing something else while playing music in the background, this could come in handy. I had heard about ReplayGain, but I thought that modifies your original files, so I didn't mess with it. Would be curious if such loudness normalization can be applied non-destructively, on the fly.

I am delighted that you got to experience that! For us, it's like telling you how delicious a burger is but there is no way to know until you actually eat a burger (I am one of those strange types who gets emotional about food!).

Revels are tuned differently to B&W's. B&W's typically have too much treble, which I am not a fan of. Revels have much more neutral tuning. But B&W's might work for you. I think you have also realized that what works in a small room will not work in a larger room. From what I remember, your room isn't that large. It's a bit smaller than mine, and I can tell you that I can put bookshelf speakers in my room and it's plenty loud for me. But remember my preference for volume seems to be much lower than yours.

It's possible that for shorter listening sessions BWs work better, but I did read that higher treble can cause fatigue. In general, I like treble, but can't tell if it has been my way to compensate for poor quality speakers.

Hahaha, it never ends!! Wait till you buy these speakers and start enjoying them. Then you get invited to someone's house with an amazing sound system. Then you will feel as if you have been missing out again. I have been in this hobby for 30 years, which is less than a lot of people on ASR. I have listened to dozens of systems in shops, hifi shows, and in homes. I still come across things I have never heard before and I am still learning.

For now, you should forget about subs, DSP, and so on. You might eventually need them, but right now you don't need them. Keep it simple and get the best speakers you can. The above advice should be taken an upgrade pathway, rather than something you need to do immediately. The most important rule for upgrading is: never spend money unless you have identified a problem and have a rational solution to fix it. You don't have speakers, so you don't know if you have a problem yet. What WE consider to be potential problems may not be a problem for YOU when you get your speakers and put them in your room. You might be perfectly happy with the sound, so you may not even need to go down this route.

BTW, it is hard for dogs to knock over a sturdy stand for bookshelf speakers, especially if it is very heavy. Some stands are hollow and you can take the top off and fill it with sand or lead shot (I found a 10kg bag of lead shot online for USD$50 ... I just looked). Some bookshelf speakers have holes so they can be bolted to stands. Of course, it depends on how big your dogs are. You could place some obstacles around your speaker stands so they can't run fast near them. And you can train your dogs not to run around in the house. I trained my dog not to walk on any carpeted areas. Just a thought.

My dogs are relatively big and one of them is a Malinois. He wouldn't do it on purpose, just an accidental knock. Plus I like to roughhouse with him, sometimes with some well timed music in the background. Few months ago, we knocked off the TV during play and the entire screen shattered on the inside. To add insult to injury, when I took it to a recycling place, I had to pay another $15 for them to accept it because of the punctured screen. Definitely reasons to worry for the speakers.

If I get the KH-150s, they include simple, metallic stands that are adjustable, which I like since I could play around with the height. But I agree, stands that can take in sand would be sturdier.

 

[Ellebob]

Adding a sub to the KH150s is not hard depending on the sub. If it is the Neumann sub it would not be a problem at all. If you connect your speakers directly to your PC then you would need a sub that would connect to your PC and has outputs to connect your speakers to the sub. If the sub doesn't have that then you would need some type of pre-amp/DSP connected to your PC or something like the Bluesound Node.

If using a Bluesound Node with its subwoofer output you don't need a sub with outputs to the speakers. The speakers and the sub would connect to the node as the Node handles the crossover.

Compared to the speakers you are using I would keep the Kali IN-8 on the list to take a listen. I've been testing the LP-6 and LP-8 for work and brought them home and to a friend's house for some comparison. We compared the LP-6 and LP-8 to the B&W 606 S2 and everyone liked the Kali better. The B&W is defintiely not accurate so you may prefer their sound. However, the LP-6 and LP-8 both sounded cleaner as you turned it up compared to the B&W. They might not play as loud as the Neumann but they definitely do fine against the B&W and if the B&W played loud enough than the Kali will as well. We don't have IN-5 or IN-8 in yet but they are supposed to be better than the LP series. So, I can't comment on the IN-8. But, a pair of them with their sub is considerably less expensive and within your budget. They have some dip switches you set based on the speaker's placement for EQ but nowhere near as comprehensive as the MA-1 calibration system.

If the KH-150s are within your budget they are obviously the better choice, especially if adding the sub. But, no matter which speaker you choose having a listen to them is crucial part of the process for deciding what you like. Just because my friends and family didn't like the B&W speakers compared to the Kali and others doesn't mean you will come to the same conclusion. The link to the post with comparisons to the B&W.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s-would-you-go-with.34908/page-2#post-1509026

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Buying speakers without being able to listen to them hurts us as consumers. If there were a brick and mortar store we could go there and the speakers would be more expensive because of the cost of maintaining the store. We have replaced the cost of the brick and mortar store with the cost of handling returns. I don't see where it's a problem that all speakers become 1-10% more expensive so that we can preserve the experience of having a positive retail transaction. Or should we all celebrate the death of retail?

Absolutely agree. This is how it needs to be when we can't go to the store for a listen.

 

[Galliardist]

A couple of quick points:
Subs and the Chaconne. The lowest note of the violin is 196Hz in standard tuning. The strike when the bow first hits the string is wide range and can go a fair bit lower.
Your subs may cross over at 80Hz but may well be outputting something even when playing solo violin. I had that brought out when I auditioned my speakers. The top of the range had 12 inch bass drivers crossed over at around 125 Hz. The speakers I have work in a similar way but have eight inch bass drivers. The difference between the two stood out most when playing an accompanied violin sonata, and it was the violin that improved. People think that treble instruments work at high frequencies, and indeed all instruments do, but the energy in the music comes from below 250Hz and that's where the power needs to go. You still need a great tweeter because the harmonics are where the differences between instruments reside. Even so, subs help everything!



The dogs: remember that Genelec and Neumann speakers can work close to walls and can be wall mounted. I don't know how ideal that is, but the Genelec guides certainly allow wall mounting. Even your dog can't knock down a wall! A shelf for an amp or DAC could be used as well. Passive speakers often require a larger gap to the wall and aren't usually designed for wallmounts, but it can be done. It's not something I've done, so I'll leave the idea open for others to comment.

Edit: this assumes you can use such things, which are probably out if you are renting, of course.

There would be little difference between the B&W models, as you say. The floorstanders, if properly positioned, will move more air and may work better in a larger room, or give more impact in the mid bass. I'm not sure you would miss much. As others have said, they do sound bright and can be tiring to listen to (in my case quickly, with other people sometimes after an hour or so).

I'm always in favour of buying your first system from a physical store. You have somewhere to go if things break and don't have to deal with grey import issues or sending stuff overseas for repair, etc. It's worth some compromise in other areas to have that: and the shop gets to stay open if you need it later.

And: you said you are going to use Roon. If so, look very hard for an alternative to the Node if you are going to use analogue outputs. I think I pointed out already that the Node's DAC measures poorly. The real purpose of the Node is to give you access to the BluSound app, and if you're paying for Roon that is what you will use. Seek out a better endpoint.

 

[ZolaIII]

@excelsius adding sub's to Neumann's (or any other active monitors with balanced inputs only) wouldn't be harder than usual but it would be more expensive. Because you would either need sub's with balanced inputs or DSP procesor with both balanced and unbalanced multi chanel outputs. MiniDSP SHD is only one that I know of and all inclusive will set you back 1200$ (Dirac Live and UMIK-1 included). It includes streamer also. And when we come to that you won't be able to use your Bluesound Node without balanced DAC or use Neumann's at all without something having balanced outs (balanced DAC) in the first place. So as it is would be advisable that you purchase MiniDSP SHD straight away with them. On the bright side (if there is such in this) that's one more box less (Bluesound Node). Other path would be keap Node, buy MiniDSP Flex balanced version and go for subwoofer's with balanced inputs but their offering is rather limited.
One more thing you do understand how you won't be able to mont large subwoofer's onto anything.
There is no substitute for proper placement of speakers and I don't feel like participating in this anymore at all just that you can buy great system (speakers and all) which won't sound good in the end because you can't place them properly.

 

[Galliardist]

A couple of quick points:
Subs and the Chaconne. The lowest note of the violin is 196Hz in standard tuning. The strike when the bow first hits the string is wide range and can go a fair bit lower.
Your subs may cross over at 80Hz but may well be outputting something even when playing solo violin. I had that brought out when I auditioned my speakers. The top of the range had 12 inch bass drivers crossed over at around 125 Hz. The speakers I have work in a similar way but have eight inch bass drivers. The difference between the two stood out most when playing an accompanied violin sonata, and it was the violin that improved. People think that treble instruments work at high frequencies, and indeed all instruments do, but the energy in the music comes from below 250Hz and that's where the power needs to go. You still need a great tweeter because the harmonics are where the differences between instruments reside. Even so, subs help everything!



The dogs: remember that Genelec and Neumann speakers can work close to walls and can be wall mounted. I don't know how ideal that is, but the Genelec guides certainly allow wall mounting. Even your dog can't knock down a wall! A shelf for an amp or DAC could be used as well. Passive speakers often require a larger gap to the wall and aren't usually designed for wallmounts, but it can be done. It's not something I've done, so I'll leave the idea open for others to comment.

Edit: this assumes you can use such things, which are probably out if you are renting, of course.

There would be little difference between the B&W models, as you say. The floorstanders, if properly positioned, will move more air and may work better in a larger room, or give more impact in the mid bass. I'm not sure you would miss much. As others have said, they do sound bright and can be tiring to listen to (in my case quickly, with other people sometimes after an hour or so).

I'm always in favour of buying your first system from a physical store. You have somewhere to go if things break and don't have to deal with grey import issues or sending stuff overseas for repair, etc. It's worth some compromise in other areas to have that: and the shop gets to stay open if you need it later.

And: you said you are going to use Roon. If so, look very hard for an alternative to the Node if you are going to use analogue outputs. I think I pointed out already that the Node's DAC measures poorly. The real purpose of the Node is to give you access to the BluSound app, and if you're paying for Roon that is what you will use. Seek out a better endpoint.

I should have explained that the crossover is not an on/off thing. Both units roll off beyond the crossover frequency, so the main speaker will still output a signal below the crossover to the sub, and the sub will roll off above the crossover frequency and may still be giving a low level of sound with the violin.

 

[ZolaIII]

I should have explained that the crossover is not an on/off thing. Both units roll off beyond the crossover frequency, so the main speaker will still output a signal below the crossover to the sub, and the sub will roll off above the crossover frequency and may still be giving a low level of sound with the violin.

That depends how high dB slope per octave you use, you can make them totally silent if you wish.

 

[JustJones]

The Neumann subs are more expensive but would be easier to integrate. No matter what stand a large dog can knock it over.

 

[ZolaIII]

@JustJones great then regular Flex will do the job.
Still I am not certain it will sound as it should (actually it won't) with different employed DAC clock's. All of such do ADC - DSP - DAC to power amplifier. Which only leave pasive or active solutions without internal reprocessing in digital domain.

 

[JustJones]

@JustJones great then regular Flex will do the job.
Still I am not certain it will sound as it should (actually it won't) with different employed DAC clock's. All of such do ADC - DSP - DAC to power amplifier. Which only leave pasive or active solutions without internal reprocessing in digital domain.

I edited my post the KH150 uses XLR analog inputs so you recommendation of the Minidsp SHD would be easier.

 

[Sokel]

@JustJones great then regular Flex will do the job.
Still I am not certain it will sound as it should (actually it won't) with different employed DAC clock's. All of such do ADC - DSP - DAC to power amplifier. Which only leave pasive or active solutions without internal reprocessing in digital domain.

I edited my post the KH150 uses XLR analog inputs so you recommendation of the Minidsp SHD would be easier.

I think OP said there's not enough space for devices,he even said that any of them would have to be placed on top of the speakers (!).
How would all of this fit to this demand?

 

[JustJones]

I think OP said there's not enough space for devices,he even said that any of them would have to be placed on top of the speakers (!).
How would all of this fit to this demand?

It wouldn't work to well IMO but he also said he's looking at the Neumann KH150 and wondered about using Subs with them. I would stick with Neumann Subs since there wouldn't be any need for extra devices but he would need something for third party subs.

 

[ZolaIII]

I edited my post the KH150 uses XLR analog inputs so you recommendation of the Minidsp SHD would be easier.

The devil is always in the details. Unfortunately this makes all the high end monitors with embedded DSP's not really suitable (clock sync PCM problem) for crossing with subwoofer's nor high end sub's which do things in similar manner.

Thank you for enlightening moment!

 

[JustJones]

The wall mounted idea looks good I don't know of any speaker stand a Malinois couldn't topple simply by leaning on it. Maybe fasten the stand to the floor?

 

[maty]

I read a bit and... pfff

Room dimensions. USA, Europe or...? DIY option? How much? With or without subs?

I love classic, baroque... music. With very good recordings.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1638223173173780480

 

[mj30250]

I see, so this is where that MA-1 would come since I think the KH-150 has an internal DSP. In that case, are microphones DSP specific? In other words, could I use the UMIK-1 with KH-150? Or use the MA-1 with a different DSP?

Yes, you can certainly use a UMIK-1 with the KH 150, but then you will still need something like a miniDSP and REW. I don't believe you would be able to use the MA 1 alignment software with anything other than Neumann's mic. Even if that is possible, you would almost certainly need to manipulate the calibration file in some way to get it to work properly, and that's certainly beyond my knowledge. Others here may have some experience in this area.

If using the MA-1 would allow me to add a sub to KH-150 without using an external DSP, maybe it would be worth it to keep the system clean.

Yes, but again, you will need to use Neumann's sub (KH 750) in that case, which is certainly high quality and will make integration super easy (sometimes buggy software aside), but they are costly. If you plan to drive the system to very loud volumes (as is your goal), you will need two KH 750s. You are way above budget at this point, but it would be a simple upgrade path to take down the road.

 

[Keith_W]

Excelsius, I think that on ASR there would be 100% agreement on the importance of obtaining a microphone, and learning how to interpret the results. It is a science-based approach to fixing problems, and it will help you achieve good results much faster than any other method.

But I still think you should just get some speakers and start listening to music! See if you can pick with your own ears whether there are any problems and anything you are unhappy about. If you can, then you can go down this road. If you are happy with the sound, then there is no need to do anything else. Sometimes ignorance is bliss (and cheaper!).

 

[Sokel]

Is their a chance to put (any) speakers you have around at the points you would put the new ones and give it a test?
Even for fun,everything will do.
You can download a SPL meter to your phone,measure them to the point they don't distort badly and see how it goes.

 

[ooheadsoo]

That is not true. The speaker should be just exact. The reasoning goes like this:
- the original sound cannot, under no circumstances, be reproduced. See the academic efforts to invent 'holographic' soundfields and the like. Why do especially audio amateurs still dream of a reproduction of the original (concert)?
- a recording is an abstraction very much like a pencil sketch of a visual scene is not the real thing; here you see why especially enthusiastic audio amateurs miss the point: they don't know about the means of abstraction the sound engineer has at hand
- the sound engineer evaluates how well a set of choices will convey the mental meaning of the musical event by
- him listening to alternative takes (microphone type, position), mixes
- using more or less standardized speakers
- in a dedicated studio environment
=> hence, in order to best follow the sound engineer's decision making, and appreciate the outcome to the fullest, the speakers plus operational environment should resemble that in the studio closely

There is no use in asking for 'wide directivity' or other deviating extras with a naive reference to the 'original concert'. The requirements are stated by the studio, not by the concert hall!


Exactly! 83dB on average is pretty darn loud! Only few 'classical' recordings exceed +/- 15dB of dynamics. This is to our all benefit and part of the above mentioned abstractions.

Did anyone say anything about reproducing the original concert? I'm talking about reproducing the imaging characteristic of sound at a concert hall vs. at home. You will not hear pinpoint imaging at most halls or rooms. Point imaging is generally a recording artifact. Maybe we can go back to the subject of wide dispersion and its impact on imaging.

 

[Keith_W]

Did anyone say anything about reproducing the original concert? I'm talking about reproducing the imaging characteristic of sound at a concert hall vs. at home. You will not hear pinpoint imaging at most halls or rooms. Point imaging is generally a recording artifact. Maybe we can go back to the subject of wide dispersion and its impact on imaging.

Not always true. You won't get pin point imaging in a large concert hall, that is true. In fact, even expensive seats don't always get you great imaging. I once sat in the second row, to the right. My entire evening was dominated by cellos and basses. OTOH I have had some "wins", like when I was invited to a couple of small private concerts - one featuring a lieder singer with piano accompaniment, and the other a string quartet. Both were performed in a small room in an art gallery (I would estimate about twice the size of my living room). Pinpoint imaging was quite evident.