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Properties of speakers that creates a large and precise soundstage

tmuikku

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Hi, if you make crossover for electric signal, sum it back electrically. there is no difference with LR filters at least, as long as frequency response does not change dramatically. Hence, crossover as concept does not alter sound. One could implement linear phase crossover as well.

With speakers, the crossover splits signal in electric domain and is summed back by your ears, in acoustic domain. So if you hear difference it's due to something else, anything in acoustic domain before your ears, like edges of the box making diffraction, or interference issues through reflections, directivity, or anything in the electric/acoustic conversion. All these are due to the system and not from the crossover (split) itself. I understand this might be what you ment but it's not clear what you ment.

For example the transducer itself has a coil, usually with iron core, and the whole assembly moves, so worst possible variety of coil, and adding an air core inductor in series actually makes things better, not worse as you fear. If you dig deeper into how stuff works you can make things worse or better with the passive crossover. And one does not have to use passive parts to make crossover, but one could utilize DSP for example, or both passive and active xo for best performance.

There is nothing to be afraid of crossovers, they just need to be implemented well and that is not too hard nowadays. If you hear a bad sounding system it obviously has some issues either in implementation or it just isn't suitable for the particular application you are listening, or is not set up ideally for it. It could be fullrange driver system, or some multiway system, both could sound better or worse depending on application and implementation.

Sorry, point is not to start a fight or anything, just show a different perspective on the stuff and that there rarely is just one thing that affects performance but multitude of things. Fullrange driver can make a fabulous system, but is eventually limited in output capability and bandwidth so a crossover is inevitable if one needs more of those and there is no reason to be afraid of it.
 
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sigbergaudio

sigbergaudio

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Energy ( power ) is lost, perfect phase is lost, the direct connection to the driver is lost ( last thing important below emf frequencies, ie bass ). There are also things added from the crossover like delayed energy and distortion. A coil is one of the worst behaving electronic component .

Even If the crossover is an active one, you have a lot of extra electronics before the driver that contributes with some coloration/noise.

Using a single driver is in reality an active speaker, connected directly to the amplifier but without having those drawbacks of a crossover.

Using only one driver have many cons to, as we all know. But the biggest advantage is point source behaviour and perfect phase in the midrange where the ear is most sensitive. This can make the soundstage huge and at the same time very exact.


A single driver is a huge compromise in so many other respects. A point source can be achieved by a coax driver, and perfect phase through the crossover is also achieveable. The result is as you say a soundstage that is both huge and exact.

I'd be pretty impressed if you could hear any adverse effects of the crossover across the midrange here (this is a coaxdriver):

Frequency response:
1699696981907.png


Phase:
1699697037041.png
 

Tangband

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Hi, if you make crossover for electric signal, sum it back electrically. there is no difference with LR filters at least, as long as frequency response does not change dramatically. Hence, crossover as concept does not alter sound. One could implement linear phase crossover as well.
In a perfect world- yes. But crossover components are not perfect,they are unlinear and changes value when they heat up.
With speakers, the crossover splits signal in electric domain and is summed back by your ears, in acoustic domain. So if you hear difference it's due to something else, anything in acoustic domain before your ears, like edges of the box making diffraction, or interference issues through reflections directivity, or anything in the electric/acoustic conversion. All these are due to the system and not from the crossover (split) itself. I understand this might be what you ment but it's not clear what you ment.

For example the transducer itself has a coil, usually with iron core, and the whole assembly moves, so worst possible variety of coil, and adding an air core inductor in series actually makes things better, not worse as you fear. If you dig deeper into how stuff works you can make things worse or better with the passive crossover. And one does not have to use passive parts to make crossover, but one could utilize DSP for example, or both passive and active xo for best performance.
A very good dsp is less bad, but an average quality dsp crossover does a small worsening of the sound, just like any average preamp changes the sound for the worse. If the dsp crossover loose some in transparency, that loss cant be recovered by the driver, no matter how good.
There is nothing to be afraid of crossovers, they just need to be implemented well and that is not too hard nowadays. If you hear a bad sounding system it obviously has some issues either in implementation or it just isn't suitable for the particular application, or is not set up ideally. It could be fullrange driver system, or some multiway system depending on application and implementation.

Sorry, point is not to start a fight or anything, just show a different perspective on the stuff and there rarely is just one thing that affects performance but multitude of things. Fullrange driver can make a fabulous system, but is eventually limited in output capability and bandwidth so a crossover is inevitable if one needs more of those and there is no reason to be afraid of it.
You shouldnt be afraid of trying anything.:)
 

BenB

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Energy ( power ) is lost, perfect phase is lost, the direct connection to the driver is lost ( last thing important below emf frequencies, ie bass ). There are also things added from the crossover like delayed energy and distortion. A coil is one of the worst behaving electronic component .

Even If the crossover is an active one, you have a lot of extra electronics before the driver that contributes with some coloration/noise.

Using a single driver is in reality an active speaker, connected directly to the amplifier but without having those drawbacks of a crossover.

Using only one driver have many cons to, as we all know. But the biggest advantage is point source behaviour and perfect phase in the midrange where the ear is most sensitive. This can make the soundstage huge and at the same time very exact.
A single driver is not a point source. A point source has a negligible extent.
While the ear is most sensitive in the midrange and lower treble from a magnitude perspective, the phase distortions caused by crossovers in that range are imperceptible to humans. It's at lower frequencies (80-500 hz) where phase distortions of the kind introduced by crossovers cause any perceptible difference, and even there it would be difficult to determine a preference.
 

fpitas

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Even If the crossover is an active one, you have a lot of extra electronics before the driver that contributes with some coloration/noise.
Once upon a time. Things went past there about 15 years ago.
 

Tangband

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Once upon a time. Things went past there about 15 years ago.
Its ofcourse impossible to say on this forum that single speakers can sound good, and in some way even sound better than a multiway loudspeaker. But its a fact .

What you say is not entirely true - I can only mention mini dsp , the one with analog inputs that still sells and are rather bad sounding if used as dsp crossover .

There are good dsp crossovers out there for a lot more money, but none of those are 100% transparent and will loose some music information that no loudspeaker driver can retrieve.

When we discuss this, we always suggest that a dsp crossover is perfect with schoolbook behaviour with a perfect Linkwitz Riley crossover . But the real world is nowhere near perfect , drivers are very unlinear and a perfect aligned crossover dont exist . The best crossover is no crossover . :)
 
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fpitas

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Its ofcourse impossible to say on this forum that single speakers can sound good, and in some way even sound better than a multiway loudspeaker. But its a fact .

What you say is not entirely true - I can only mention mini dsp , the one with analog inputs that still sells and are rather bad sounding if used as dsp crossover .
And there are better solutions than MiniDSP, albeit more expensive. Quoting one hobbyist DSP does not prove much.
 
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fpitas

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In any event, there is no escaping from the serious limitations of a single driver speaker. The audio industry has done some odd things at times, but multi-way is here to stay.
 

Purité Audio

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Can one become a single driver loudspeaker ‘designer’ , it’s just a driver in a box isn’t it?
Keith
 

fpitas

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Can one become a single speaker driver ‘designer’ , it’s just a driver in a box isn’t it?
Keith
Some of the better ones feature a transmission line.
 

Tangband

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In any event, there is no escaping from the serious limitations of a single driver speaker. The audio industry has done some odd things at times, but multi-way is here to stay.
Can you tell me why I prefer a singlespeakerdriver loudspeaker like Sibelius compared to both Genelec 8340 SAM and Genelec 8030C when doing comparable listening sessions for many hours, and that I have had friends coming over expressing the same experience as I have ?

Go out and have a listen :)
 

Purité Audio

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True transmission line designs tend to be on the big side don’t they?
Keith
 

Purité Audio

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Can you tell me why I prefer a singlespeakerdriver loudspeaker like Sibelius compared to both Genelec 8340 SAM and Genelec 8030C when doing comparable listening sessions for many hours, and that I have had friends coming over expressing the same experience as I have ?
No.
Keith
 
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fpitas

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Can you tell me why I prefer a singlespeakerdriver loudspeaker like Sibelius compared to both Genelec 8340 SAM and Genelec 8030C when doing comparable listening sessions for many hours, and that I have had friends coming over expressing the same experience as I have ?
No, I can't. Can you tell me why I've been disappointed in the single driver speakers I've heard? I've built several and heard a bunch.
 

Tangband

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No, I can't. Can you tell me why I've been disappointed in the single driver speakers I've heard? I've built several and heard a bunch.
You have not used the best drivers ;)
 

fpitas

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True transmission line designs tend to be on the big side don’t they?
Keith
Yeah, but for a 4 inch driver you end up putting the driver near ear level and reduce the Doppler distortion considerably. It's about the best you can make of a bad idea.
 

fpitas

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Tangband

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Purité Audio

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Purely for me anything with a whizzer cone or really large single drivers horns are amongst the worst ever,
I remember sitting in front of some Voxativ single driver speakers in Munich I just couldn’t come to terms with them and they were hugely expensive.
Keith
 

fpitas

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