Prices... am I out of touch?

[tomtoo]

Edit preamble - yes, I know, there is actually, genuinely cheap entry-level gear, and it is good, very very good even, as low as ~$200 and under per piece. Yes, that is a good price, that makes sense to me. The disconnect for me, explained further below, is when more expensive things get called cheap, because to me $500 for an amp for example or a single speaker or a pair of headphones is already getting excessive for what it is, in my opinion at least, whereas it seems like many in this hobby, especially reviewers, still call that "budget". For me, that doesn't parse, I'd even dare to say it seems deranged, in a "who is this even for? How much of a spendthrift do you have to be for this to be budget?" sense. I think this all comes off more aggressive or accusatory than I'd like but I mean no offense, I just don't know how else to put voice to my thoughts.

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The more I read around about hi-fi the more baffled and bewildered I become on the price tags of equipment... I see $3,000 speakers, $1,000 amplifiers and $500 headphones being hailed as "low price" "great value" "a steal" "budget" "affordable" etc... to me none of those are anywhere even close to being any of those things! Even $200 is already an awful lot for headphones by my reckoning. Just yesterday I saw a review in a magazine magazine calling itself "affordable audio" for a $680 amplifier, which dared to call it "affordable", and gave it their "best of the year" award... no, sir, that is not "affordable", that is half a month's rent! I'd feel like I got punked if I subscribed to that magazine and then got that nonsense in the mail for it!

Just crazy to me not only how high the price tags can reach (way higher than anything I've mentioned so far), but how expensive it goes before audiophiles stop calling it "cheap". There's a massive disconnect for me whenever I see someone (on a forum, in a review, in a video, in a magazine, whatever) talking about something that for me is unthinkably expensive as if it's some kind of great deal, usually touting something along the lines of "you get what you pay for" just to rub it in. I don't get it... and, I'll admit, it's frustrating. I don't see the value in any of it. Am I alone?

You dont get it ? Its easy. The more expensive the better it sounds. The complete market and media support is build on this since at least 40 years. Does it realy sound better? If you get the imagine it does the magic happens it does. Its mostly expensiv placebo. But never forget placebo works, at least some times.

 

[AdamG]

No more political content posts please. Any further posts about this will be deleted without notification and you may also lose posting privileges. You all know better. It’s your house and the rules are here for the betterment of the community. Please use self restraint and keep your political views, no matter how brilliant you may think they are, to yourself.

Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.

 

[rank]

The best thing would be to delete this whole thread because finding a price too high can be a sign of a low salary and therefore everything becomes political. Also repeated are many errors about the current system of production and consumption, the split margin between public and private. Let us remember all the same that criticizing a brand can earn you serious legal proceedings everywhere. The best thing would be to ignore what you don't like and only talk about subjects that you know thoroughly.

 

[terryforsythe]

Edit preamble - yes, I know, there is actually, genuinely cheap entry-level gear, and it is good, very very good even, as low as ~$200 and under per piece. Yes, that is a good price, that makes sense to me. The disconnect for me, explained further below, is when more expensive things get called cheap, because to me $500 for an amp for example or a single speaker or a pair of headphones is already getting excessive for what it is, in my opinion at least, whereas it seems like many in this hobby, especially reviewers, still call that "budget". For me, that doesn't parse, I'd even dare to say it seems deranged, in a "who is this even for? How much of a spendthrift do you have to be for this to be budget?" sense. I think this all comes off more aggressive or accusatory than I'd like but I mean no offense, I just don't know how else to put voice to my thoughts.

------------

The more I read around about hi-fi the more baffled and bewildered I become on the price tags of equipment... I see $3,000 speakers, $1,000 amplifiers and $500 headphones being hailed as "low price" "great value" "a steal" "budget" "affordable" etc... to me none of those are anywhere even close to being any of those things! Even $200 is already an awful lot for headphones by my reckoning. Just yesterday I saw a review in a magazine magazine calling itself "affordable audio" for a $680 amplifier, which dared to call it "affordable", and gave it their "best of the year" award... no, sir, that is not "affordable", that is half a month's rent! I'd feel like I got punked if I subscribed to that magazine and then got that nonsense in the mail for it!

Just crazy to me not only how high the price tags can reach (way higher than anything I've mentioned so far), but how expensive it goes before audiophiles stop calling it "cheap". There's a massive disconnect for me whenever I see someone (on a forum, in a review, in a video, in a magazine, whatever) talking about something that for me is unthinkably expensive as if it's some kind of great deal, usually touting something along the lines of "you get what you pay for" just to rub it in. I don't get it... and, I'll admit, it's frustrating. I don't see the value in any of it. Am I alone?

Some people will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a Hermes handbag, while a $10 handbag will suffice for others.

Some people will spend tens of thousands of dollars on a Rolex watch, while a $20 quartz watch will keep time more accurately.

The list of crazy price differences between commensurate consumer goods goes on, and on. Audio equipment is no different in that regard. It is just that most people in this forum probably have a passion for audio and audio equipment, and thus we are more conscious of this aspect of the consumer market.

 

[Petrushka]

Some people will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a Hermes handbag, while a $10 handbag will suffice for others.

Some people will spend tens of thousands of dollars on a Rolex watch, while a $20 quartz watch will keep time more accurately.

The list of crazy price differences between commensurate consumer goods goes on, and on. Audio equipment is no different in that regard. It is just that most people in this forum probably have a passion for audio and audio equipment, and thus we are more conscious of this aspect of the consumer market.

Some people drop more than my annual income on jewelry. Things that lose half their value before you leave the store.

Dare I suggest that after a few thousand dollars, speakers are bling?

And in electronics, the bling factor starts well below a thousand.

The fact that natural gemstones can be distinguished from manufactured, and that both are indistinguishable from fakes in casual viewing, does not stop people from enjoying the luxury.

 

[Sokel]

Some people drop more than my annual income on jewelry. Things that lose half their value before you leave the store.

Dare I suggest that after a few thousand dollars, speakers are bling?

And in electronics, the bling factor starts well below a thousand.

The fact that natural gemstones can be distinguished from manufactured, and that both are indistinguishable from fakes in casual viewing, does not stop people from enjoying the luxury.

Some of these hundred thousand dollar speakers cost their owners less than a bookshelf.
They only have to wait until around December to get them.
I think you can understand why.

 

[killdozzer]

Edit preamble - yes, I know, there is actually, genuinely cheap entry-level gear, and it is good, very very good even, as low as ~$200 and under per piece. Yes, that is a good price, that makes sense to me. The disconnect for me, explained further below, is when more expensive things get called cheap, because to me $500 for an amp for example or a single speaker or a pair of headphones is already getting excessive for what it is, in my opinion at least, whereas it seems like many in this hobby, especially reviewers, still call that "budget". For me, that doesn't parse, I'd even dare to say it seems deranged, in a "who is this even for? How much of a spendthrift do you have to be for this to be budget?" sense. I think this all comes off more aggressive or accusatory than I'd like but I mean no offense, I just don't know how else to put voice to my thoughts.

------------

The more I read around about hi-fi the more baffled and bewildered I become on the price tags of equipment... I see $3,000 speakers, $1,000 amplifiers and $500 headphones being hailed as "low price" "great value" "a steal" "budget" "affordable" etc... to me none of those are anywhere even close to being any of those things! Even $200 is already an awful lot for headphones by my reckoning. Just yesterday I saw a review in a magazine magazine calling itself "affordable audio" for a $680 amplifier, which dared to call it "affordable", and gave it their "best of the year" award... no, sir, that is not "affordable", that is half a month's rent! I'd feel like I got punked if I subscribed to that magazine and then got that nonsense in the mail for it!

Just crazy to me not only how high the price tags can reach (way higher than anything I've mentioned so far), but how expensive it goes before audiophiles stop calling it "cheap". There's a massive disconnect for me whenever I see someone (on a forum, in a review, in a video, in a magazine, whatever) talking about something that for me is unthinkably expensive as if it's some kind of great deal, usually touting something along the lines of "you get what you pay for" just to rub it in. I don't get it... and, I'll admit, it's frustrating. I don't see the value in any of it. Am I alone?

I agree with you. Prices should go down.

 

[Chr1]

Some people drop more than my annual income on jewelry. Things that lose half their value before you leave the store.

Dare I suggest that after a few thousand dollars, speakers are bling?

And in electronics, the bling factor starts well below a thousand.

The fact that natural gemstones can be distinguished from manufactured, and that both are indistinguishable from fakes in casual viewing, does not stop people from enjoying the luxury.

My dream speakers are Genelec 8381As. At 60k a pair, I will never own them. They are priced such as they go loud cleanly. Definitely functional, and not really "bling" as I see it. I agree with furniture grade, high-end hifi speakers being bling. Genelecs : no.

Personally, I also prefer their rather brutal functional looks over super glossy laquered wood... Same way I prefer the raw look of SOTA racing motorcycles over shiny cruisers...I guess good looks are subjective. YMMV.

 

[RayDunzl]

I would bet many people here with elaborate systems , expensive or not, listen to music quite bit on their smart phone or computer pad with headphones or earbuds.

Not me.

Two sets of speakers, though.

JBL LSR 308 for daily use, enonomical on the electric bill.

MartinLogan and baby krell amps when i really want to hear something.

Have a pair of very rarely used headphones.

Any listening to computer or phone speakers is not for really listening.

Have a pair of buds that came with the phone. Tried them once or twice.

 

[Mart68]

Not me.

Two sets of speakers, though.

JBL LSR 308 for daily use, enonomical on the electric bill.

MartinLogan and baby krell amps when i really want to hear something.

Have a pair of very rarely used headphones.

Any listening to computer or phone speakers is not for really listening.

Have a pair of buds that came with the phone. Tried them once or twice.

Not me either, can't be doing with headphones anyway.

Didn't spend all that time and money for no reason. Listening to my favourite music at close to the best quality possible is important to me.

 

[Cogito]

Some people will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a Hermes handbag, while a $10 handbag will suffice for others.

Some people will spend tens of thousands of dollars on a Rolex watch, while a $20 quartz watch will keep time more accurately.

The list of crazy price differences between commensurate consumer goods goes on, and on. Audio equipment is no different in that regard. It is just that most people in this forum probably have a passion for audio and audio equipment, and thus we are more conscious of this aspect of the consumer market.

I think the critical difference here is that a good majority of those who spend crazy amounts on their gear will tout it's improved performance without any objective proof. Exotic cables are the perfect example of this.

 

[TurtlePaul]

I think the critical difference here is that a good majority of those who spend crazy amounts on their gear will tout it's improved performance without any objective proof. Exotic cables are the perfect example of this.

That is just a straw man argument.

Firstly, there are several people who buy audio knowing they are buying audio jewelry. For example, I have F206 and part of my decision on them is that I wanted the walnut finish and not to have vinyl wrapped MDF anymore. Also, you see people in the Fosi v3 mono thread saying they would rather have their monoblocks in bigger boxes. Nothing wrong with paying more for attractive pieces what you know are sonically equivalent. Similarly, a lot of people buy into the SINAD race for the technology even if you can't hear a difference in any of the top DACs and amps.

Secondly, ASR is setup directly to provide objective proof of speaker performance. I know that a lot of people look for value for money, but you can sort the speaker review index by price or preference score and some of the most expensive speakers are also the best in Olive score and low distortion / high output. The Revel F328Be, the Genelec 83X1, Dutch & Dutch 8c, Neumann kh 420 and Kef Reference series are both the most expensive and best scoring speakers. $1000 / speaker is the cheapest price possible to get into the top 10 preference scores so there is something to being able to make more expensive speakers better and that only gets you monitors with one 6.5" woofer per side.

You make a straw man regarding the expensive cable believers - it is easy to make the opposite straw man of the guy who thinks his JBL 308p are the end all be all speakers and expensive speakers are a waste of money. Those top end Kef, Genelec, Neumann, Revel and JBL speakers deliver - i) better directivity than the cost conscious entry level stuff, ii) the ability to reach 100 dB+ which you just don't get with the affordable products, iii) much fewer resonances due to overbuilt cabinets and drivers, iv) huge cabinets and driver area for extended low end response without distortion.

 

[Cogito]

That is just a straw man argument.

Firstly, there are several people who buy audio knowing they are buying audio jewelry. For example, I have F206 and part of my decision on them is that I wanted the walnut finish and not to have vinyl wrapped MDF anymore. Also, you see people in the Fosi v3 mono thread saying they would rather have their monoblocks in bigger boxes. Nothing wrong with paying more for attractive pieces what you know are sonically equivalent. Similarly, a lot of people buy into the SINAD race for the technology even if you can't hear a difference in any of the top DACs and amps.

Secondly, ASR is setup directly to provide objective proof of speaker performance. I know that a lot of people look for value for money, but you can sort the speaker review index by price or preference score and some of the most expensive speakers are also the best in Olive score and low distortion / high output. The Revel F328Be, the Genelec 83X1, Dutch & Dutch 8c, Neumann kh 420 and Kef Reference series are both the most expensive and best scoring speakers. $1000 / speaker is the cheapest price possible to get into the top 10 preference scores so there is something to being able to make more expensive speakers better and that only gets you monitors with one 6.5" woofer per side.

You make a straw man regarding the expensive cable believers - it is easy to make the opposite straw man of the guy who thinks his JBL 308p are the end all be all speakers and expensive speakers are a waste of money. Those top end Kef, Genelec, Neumann, Revel and JBL speakers deliver - i) better directivity than the cost conscious entry level stuff, ii) the ability to reach 100 dB+ which you just don't get with the affordable products, iii) much fewer resonances due to overbuilt cabinets and drivers, iv) huge cabinets and driver area for extended low end response without distortion.

I'm not sure how anything you stated refutes anything I said. Anyway... In today's market, one can buy a complete high-performance system for the cost of a single component from the likes of Boulder, Mark Levinson, Krell, McIntosh or any other "Hi-End" manufacturer.

 

[Steven Holt]

@Cogito 1) You're correct 2) I still want the MA5300

 

[Sal1950]

@Cogito 1) You're correct 2) I still want the MA5300

I don't blame ya, Mc stuff is mostly beautiful, to my eyes at least.
I always first look to published component spec's before buying.
After that, all being equal I'd get the most handsome one if I could afford it.
Not a damn thing wrong with gear looking good as look as it has performance to match.

 

[mhardy6647]

I don't blame ya, Mc stuff is mostly beautiful, to my eyes at least.
I always first look to published component spec's before buying.
After that, all being equal I'd get the most handsome one if I could afford it.
Not a damn thing wrong with gear looking good as look as it has performance to match.

mostly beautiful - sort of like mostly dead in The Princess Bride...

 

[Graham849]

What is this pricing? Seriously a $3.00 computer cable selling in Australia for this....

 

[Sal1950]

mostly beautiful - sort of like mostly dead in The Princess Bride...

Another blast from the past via my 1963 Allied Radio catalog.

What is this pricing?

ROTFLMAO

 

[Petrushka]

Another blast from the past via my 1963 Allied Radio catalog.
View attachment 384300


ROTFLMAO

Multiply by 15 for inflation.

 

[TurtlePaul]

Another blast from the past via my 1963 Allied Radio catalog.

As a banker, I always get a kick out of looking at old prices. That $375 preamp would be 3.14 weeks (Pi!) of wages for a median household in’63. The equivalent would be $4,500 today. Mcintosh offers various preamps in that range, +/- $1000, currently.