Policy Change for "Desperate Dealer Forum"

[Deleted member 48726]

This is inappropriate for this thread and an inappropriate attack on (insult to) @amirm implying he lets manufacturers influence test results. Either he does not have one to measure (send one in) or he simply has not gotten to it yet. A review of previous test results here will quickly show you that he has no problems publishing poor results. If a device is absolutely broken that might hold up a review, but bad performance will not. At worst it will result in a fix and updated review later as has happened with several components.

Actually I recall Amir wrote that if he gets bad measurements out of a product he contacts the manufacturer to let them explain or assess before publishing the review. Soo..

 

[DonH56]

Actually I recall Amir wrote that if he gets bad measurements out of a product he contacts the manufacturer to let them explain or assess before publishing the review. Soo..

I'll let Amir answer, no point in getting into a pissing contest when I do not know. I have snow to shovel.

 

[AdamG]

This is inappropriate for this thread and an inappropriate attack on (insult to) @amirm implying he lets manufacturers influence test results. Either he does not have one to measure (send one in) or he simply has not gotten to it yet. A review of previous test results here will quickly show you that he has no problems publishing poor results. If a device is absolutely broken that might hold up a review, but bad performance will not. At worst it will result in a fix and updated review later as has happened with several components.

Exactly as @DonH56 says above. Amir has mentioned multiple times that if a Vendor sends in a device that does not test well or is not up to advertised specifications. As a courtesy Amir will present his test results and give the Vendor an opportunity to say go ahead and publish or let us fix this problem and we will send an updated version for testing. He will hold the review until a new unit arrives. He does this as a courtesy to Vendors who have sent product in for testing on their own accord. He does not do this with devices sent in by Members. This is an industry standard practice and Amir will normally summarize that the 1st unit sent failed and the Manufacturer fixed the problem and sent a new unit to be retested. He does not recommend a vast majority of products tested. That fact alone is evidence of his lack of commercial entanglements.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

So. The scenario that a product has been tested poorly by Amir and us not knowing about it until a communcation back and forth with the manufacturer has happened is not impossible?

 

[VintageFlanker]

Any day that passes, makes me think that it was measured poorly and that the company asked it not to be published

Nonsense. If I wish to remain polite...

Either he does not have one to measure (send one in) or he simply has not gotten to it yet.

Or... He does not have to measure any product, to begin with !

 

[Urib]

You are absolutely right. I am sorry. I must teach myself to be patient. Thanks!

 

[asrUser]

What a BS system where normal users need to donate in order to post selling threads. I better be selling on Head-Fi where there's a feedback system to build trust. If you ASR admins are too lazy to implement a feedback system, I'm not going to donate anything.

 

[ahofer]

What a BS system where normal users need to donate in order to post selling threads. I better be selling on Head-Fi where there's a feedback system to build trust. If you ASR admins are too lazy to implement a feedback system, I'm not going to donate anything.

 

[AdamG]

What a BS system where normal users need to donate in order to post selling threads. I better be selling on Head-Fi where there's a feedback system to build trust. If you ASR admins are too lazy to implement a feedback system, I'm not going to donate anything.

Yeah we all basically volunteer to do this job exactly because we are lazy. Excellent observation skills I’m impressed.

 

[asrUser]

Yeah we all basically volunteer to do this job exactly because we are lazy. Excellent observation skills I’m impressed.

It was meant to be an appeal. Could you tell me the reasons you can't / don't want to implement that? Not enough trade activity?

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Not a dealer but thanks for reminding me to donate this year. Thanks for all the entertainment and education!

I did the same. I've benefitted greatly from ASR, and felt it was appropriate to give show my support for what's being done here.

 

[BlackTalon]

It was meant to be an appeal. Could you tell me the reasons you can't / don't want to implement that? Not enough trade activity?

Maybe message the Mods and ask if they are willing to implement if you volunteer to oversee it and handle the messages/ complaints?

 

[OctoEmu]

This is inappropriate for this thread and an inappropriate attack on (insult to) @amirm implying he lets manufacturers influence test results. Either he does not have one to measure (send one in) or he simply has not gotten to it yet. A review of previous test results here will quickly show you that he has no problems publishing poor results. If a device is absolutely broken that might hold up a review, but bad performance will not. At worst it will result in a fix and updated review later as has happened with several components.

iirc believe amir actually stated he lets manufacturers choose if they wish for the results to be published when they send them in.

 

[BDWoody]

What a BS system

I better be selling on Head-Fi

If you ASR admins are too lazy to implement a feedback system...

Ummm...ok.

It was meant to be an appeal.

How often does that approach work for you?

Not enough trade activity?

Not looking to make trade activity a significant part of the forum. There are better places for that. It was initially meant to provide a means for the members to be able to sell between each other, but as we've grown, we've become more of a target for scammers of all flavors. We were getting multiple new accounts a day listing stuff with zero contribution to the greater forum, often of questionable location (IPs from Nigeria, claiming to be from US, etc.), and that's not what we wanted.

We added layers of requirements, finally deciding to add the 'donor' requirement to make it a bit less attractive a target, and to give us some ability to maybe help track people back down if there is ever an issue.

The problem then was that anyone could come in, say they are a dealer, and list whatever they want in the 'desperate dealers' section. Well, not only did that just shift our game players to that area but it gave them a free pass to sell anything, where members had to pony up.

I'm not going to donate anything.

Maybe not, but I'm sure you'll keep whining about what you aren't paying for anyway.

 

[Ron Texas]

What a BS system where normal users need to donate in order to post selling threads. I better be selling on Head-Fi where there's a feedback system to build trust. If you ASR admins are too lazy to implement a feedback system, I'm not going to donate anything.

Then go sell on Head-Fi. While you are at it ask yourself why you are buying and selling gear so much.

 

[amirm]

What a BS system where normal users need to donate in order to post selling threads. I better be selling on Head-Fi where there's a feedback system to build trust. If you ASR admins are too lazy to implement a feedback system, I'm not going to donate anything.

We have the mother of all feedback systems: the donation requirement. In doing so, we easily exclude most if not all scammers out there. They sure as heck don't want to leave a commercial transaction trail while attempting to rip someone off. This was the motivation for instituting the system. So if that is your beef, you have the best system out there.

 

[Koeitje]

It was meant to be an appeal. Could you tell me the reasons you can't / don't want to implement that? Not enough trade activity?

This website is not meant as a marketplace.

 

[tmtomh]

Some thoughts:

1. Ideally, manufacturers would not be donors, so as to keep a firewall between site revenue and site reviews. However, @amirm has been running tests for years now and there is overwhelming evidence of his and the site's integrity via the published measurements and many Not Recommended devices. And the whole time, manufacturers have been permitted to donate and several have. So at this point, making donation a requirement does nothing but even the playing field, which seems to me to be a benefit: if all manufacturers donate then there can be no accusation that donors get better reviews than non-donors.

2. Per @Urib 's speculation in post #17 above, it appears that has been debunked: Amir will not simply quash a review if a unit measures poorly. If a member sent in the unit, the review will go live as soon as it's done. If the manufacturer sent in the unit, then the review will still go live if the unit simply seems to be a mediocre performer. If the manufacturer sent in the unit and measurements reveal something to be seriously amiss or broken, then he will circle back and offer them the opportunity to fix the issue and send a second unit. I believe on at least a couple of occasions, manufacturers have responded that the unit is performing as designed, and so no 2nd unit has been sent and Amir has simply published the review with the note about his communication with the manufacturer. So he will not censor a review.

3. Per @Holdt 's comment in post #24, the answer is Yes: if something seems seriously wrong with the measurements or functionality of a unit sent in by the manufacturer, then the membership here will not know about that temporarily, during the period of time when Amir has reached out to them and is awaiting their response and/or receipt of a second, replacement unit.

I would say it's an unavoidable and totally reasonable scenario, because it would be irresponsible to report the issue to the membership before finding out what is causing the issue. Is it a hardware flaw from poor design or quality control? Is it a fluke, one-off issue that can happen with even the best manufacturers? Is it a software/firmware issue that's easily solved with an update? Is it an issue with a near-final, pre-production unit they sent Amir but they fixed the issue prior to the mass production run (I believe this has happened at least once, but I could be misremembering); is it just how all these units measure and perform?

So yes, if a significant problem arises with a manufacturer-submitted unit, it takes time for Amir to communicate with the manufacturer and sort out what the issue actually is, or isn't. It's not a scandal, an ethical problem, or Amir's fault or responsibility if someone happens to buy that device during that time window. That's called being an adult in a big world filled with lots of products, where information is not always ready at the exact moment you might want it to be.

 

[Spocko]

... I better be selling on Head-Fi where there's a feedback system to build trust...

Absolutely, ASR was never intended to be a "marketplace" but many members wished to sell their things and would prefer to sell to fellow members so it's here purely as a convenience for membership. @amirm gets absolutely no benefit for helping out this community by allowing such a marketplace. So if you find a better place to sell, absolutely go there! This is not Reverb or Ebay where the site makes money on private transactions of our membership, so to that end - if you are afraid of getting ripped off either as a buyer or seller, then go to a platform designed to protect all parties to the transaction.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Absolutely, ASR was never intended to be a "marketplace" but many members wished to sell their things and would prefer to sell to fellow members so it's here purely as a convenience for membership. @amirm gets absolutely no benefit for helping out this community by allowing such a marketplace. So if you find a better place to sell, absolutely go there! This is not Reverb or Ebay where the site makes money on private transactions of our membership, so to that end - if you are afraid of getting ripped off either as a buyer or seller, then go to a platform designed to protect all parties to the transaction.

Let's not pretend Amir doesn't get anything out of it when the there is literally a paywall if you want to sell stuff.