MrBrainwash
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Planar magnetic alternative/upgrade from HD6XX
- Thread starter RHO
- Start date
aandres_gm
Senior Member
Also interested to hear this! I would really like to get the Aeon RT/X Closed as a closed back alternative to my Ananda, provided they're on the same "league"
- Thread Starter
- #124
I'll try to do a comparison during the weekend.
I haven't used any other headphones for long enough since I got these.
One thing I can say is that I don't feel the need for any EQ on the Sundara, at any time.
I haven't used any other headphones for long enough since I got these.
One thing I can say is that I don't feel the need for any EQ on the Sundara, at any time.
- Thread Starter
- #125
I did a short comparison between the Sundara and Aeon RT closed. (and a little HD6XX)
Here's some thing I wrote down:
Sundara:
- Smoother/warmer
- As much bass extension, less SPL
- very natural timbre
- Mids equal to HD6XX but more lower treble than HD6XX and less than Aeon RT
- More balanced sound than Aeon RT
Aeon RT closed:
- Brighter
- More deep bass (SPL)
- Leaner mids but not annoyingly so
- staging is wider => more clear L vs R
- More forward snappier (more high mid focused)
- More energetic sound (V-shaped?)
Both are very good headphones. I would take the Sundara for more longer listening sessions or more relaxed listening. I would take the DCA for more exciting listening. I would apply EQ sooner to the Aeon than to the Sundara. But both can go easily without EQ. If you EQ the Aeon RT and lift the mids a little (2 - 3kHz?) it becomes less punchy but the mids become clearly warmer. It gives the impression that you loose some punch but also takes a little edge off the lower treble.
I have not EQd the Sundara yet. When switching between the Aeon and the Sundara it sometimes seems the Sundara sounds a little boring. But for longer listening sessions that can be a very good thing. Nothing sticks out but it does nothing wrong either. You could add a little bass and higher treble for some more boom and zing, but it doesn't really need it.
Both comfort and build quality go clearly to the DCA. There's nothing like it in the price range and maybe even far above. The Sundara has a decent build (I was afraid it would disappoint, but it really doesn't). My ears get a little warm with the hybrid type pads. I find the pleather pads of the Aeon more comfortable.
Here's some thing I wrote down:
Sundara:
- Smoother/warmer
- As much bass extension, less SPL
- very natural timbre
- Mids equal to HD6XX but more lower treble than HD6XX and less than Aeon RT
- More balanced sound than Aeon RT
Aeon RT closed:
- Brighter
- More deep bass (SPL)
- Leaner mids but not annoyingly so
- staging is wider => more clear L vs R
- More forward snappier (more high mid focused)
- More energetic sound (V-shaped?)
Both are very good headphones. I would take the Sundara for more longer listening sessions or more relaxed listening. I would take the DCA for more exciting listening. I would apply EQ sooner to the Aeon than to the Sundara. But both can go easily without EQ. If you EQ the Aeon RT and lift the mids a little (2 - 3kHz?) it becomes less punchy but the mids become clearly warmer. It gives the impression that you loose some punch but also takes a little edge off the lower treble.
I have not EQd the Sundara yet. When switching between the Aeon and the Sundara it sometimes seems the Sundara sounds a little boring. But for longer listening sessions that can be a very good thing. Nothing sticks out but it does nothing wrong either. You could add a little bass and higher treble for some more boom and zing, but it doesn't really need it.
Both comfort and build quality go clearly to the DCA. There's nothing like it in the price range and maybe even far above. The Sundara has a decent build (I was afraid it would disappoint, but it really doesn't). My ears get a little warm with the hybrid type pads. I find the pleather pads of the Aeon more comfortable.
- Thread Starter
- #127
I am on all types of music man. Tested with jazz, classical, pop, metal and techno.
No, I don't think the Sundara is missing anything. If you would EQ you could add a bass shelf but I don't think it needs it. You could add some treble, but certainly not the lower treble. Only the "air" frequencies a little. (Also depends on your age)
Miss is a strong word, "could use"
Not a huge fan of EQ! specially to boost things up, iron-out maybe a little, tailor to taste? try to avoid.
I have not come across a transparant enough EQ engine , currently use over-sampled Neutron Media player on Android , though jRiver on Windows is no better.
thankfully Sundara doesn't need it (much!).
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- Thread Starter
- #129
I would say the bass extension is completely there. It doesn't have the roll-off like the HD6X0 series. But it does not have the shelf like the Harman target curve. The Aeon RT closed comes closer to that.
THD in the bass for the Sundara is low enough to boost it a little if you need it. (I don't) Comparing the HD6XX to the Sundara I wouldn't take Amir's measurements as accurate for the most recent version of the Sundara. I think Resolve's measurements are more representative. Specifically in the bass frequencies. Also I don't hear the 5kHz peak you see in Amir's measurements. That suggests Amir did not have the most recent version of the pads on the Sundara.
My first copy of the Sundara left China in April 2021 if I understand the box's markings well enough, and came from an official dealer that was out of stock before ordering it, and yet its on-head response at lower frequencies wasn't particularly extended, and it also had an issue at around 1-1.2kHz, as measured here with in-concha mics vs HD560S and HD650 (and confirmed with a DIY probe mic) :
The replacement performed the same at lower frequencies. It didn't exhibit the high-Q drop at 1-1.2kHz but rather a smaller resonance similar to existing measurements (that is on the right hand side only as the left one didn't work out of the box).
Both had issues in the 6-7kHz range as illustrated by Amir's review, easily confirmed with slow sweeps.
I wouldn't put it past some degree of sample variation (definitely the case for the high-Q resonance on my first copy) and / or variations in the way it coupled to my head vs others.
Which one is Resolve's ?
I do not hear the 5kHz either, neither the 10kHz droop.
For me (taste) the only area I might ever EQ would be a gentle smooth boost at 1300Hz, just to give vocals a little warmth, that's all. (Q= 0.9 1.5dB)
Just shows how fragile headphone measurements can be.
I would accept "sample Variations" if I was to accept that HIFIMAN did extensive "matched pair" at quality control! those graphs (if I read them correctly) are very close on left & right, if there were no "matched Pair" QC, then L couldn't match R that closely.
But if HIFIMAN were so particular at QC , then sample variation couldn't happen, not to that degree -
am I missing something?
So first I'd like to mention that the use of in-ear mics with that protocol is not a good way to evaluate L/R matching as a general rule (don't over-analyse broad low Q differences, and at higher frequencies any differences full stop).
That being said the high-Q resonances exhibited by that copy of the Sundara aren't caused by the mics themselves as demonstrated by the HD560S and HD650, and other Hifiman planars I've measured in the same way (including the second copy's right channel). Any which way they're so significant that a simple sweep made them easily audible, including the exact frequency where the drop occurred.
You can observe that the resonance on the right driver is a little sharper than on the left, and that there is another one on the same side at nearly twice the frequency.
What you mention is also something that I wondered. Interestingly Hifiman HPs have two serial numbers, one for each driver. The numbers on all three I received so far were successive.
For some Hifiman HPs Solderdude has measured a few copies and it seems that while channel matching is alright for most of them, there are some differences between the samples. Crinacle's measurements of two copies of the Susvara shows alright channel matching for both of them, but the high-Q resonances are in quite different locations. https://crinacle.com/graphs/headphones/hifiman-susvara/
Perhaps Hifiman manufactures in batches and manages to have good intra-batch consistency but poorer inter-batch one. IDK.
- Thread Starter
- #134
Resolve is the guy from the headphone show/Headphones.com
I did a slow sweep and bass extension seems good. Maybe a little roll-off but by far not as bad as the HD6XX. Sounds like just a few dB from flat @20Hz.
Peak @5Kz is also not there, but that could be my hearing.
For the rest it really sounds very balanced.
2 Hours!?
he also mumbles alot. But I agree with his curves, I do not hear any treble peaks anywhere either.
Does anyone, do an FR test at differing levels, to check linearity? I mean say three FR curves, at 90dB and 96dB and 104dB for example.
I wonder if FR changes slightly against level.
Overall, I am happy too, does not need EQ - ofcourse one can apply one to taste.
- Thread Starter
- #136
It's a recorded live stream. You can FFWD the bits that are not interesting for you.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
There is no indication for this in Amirs measurements (94, 104 and 114dB).
Of course your ears will change perception of tonal balance at different levels.
That's a measurement error.
I measured a small narrow peak at 9kHz (original pads).
did he do three FR sweeps? I saw the distortion curves but not FR sweeps at three levels.
I shall re-check.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
Only distortion only at the mentioned levels. The higher distortion level at 114dB is not enough to have audible compression.
Not many people show linearity plots or sweeps at 3 levels incl. 3rd harmonics (which is the tell-tale sign)
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