Planar magnetic alternative/upgrade from HD6XX

[RHO]

- Almost all, Hifiman in particular, require a good 40+ hours of burning in at least! diaphragms are new, earcups are new, winding etc. all new, they need burning in to settle in.
only after couple of weeks, one can tell if they like the sound or not, that's why decent headphone manufacturers allow you to return the items, if not liked.

Very doubtful that this is the case. Maybe with planars, but most likely not.
Burn-in is a brain thing. Not a driver thing.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Very doubtful that this is the case. Maybe with planars, but most likely not.
Burn-in is a brain thing. Not a driver thing.

I meant planars, as they do not have the usuall speaker surround flex.
Burn in for mechanical equipments is not a brain thing, I assure you - your car manufacturer tell you to take it easy for first 2000 miles, No?
Sound transducers are mechanical.
If not, think of them as new Pants!

 

[RHO]

our car manufacturer tell you to take it easy for first 2000 miles, No?

No, they actually assured me I could drive it normal. Just like I would do in normal traffic. Just don't go racing with it, like getting into crazy high rpm.
Differences before and after burn-in are marginally small. I think for planars even smaller than with dynamic drivers. But for full size loudspeakers the effects are bigger and even then it's not a huge difference.

 

[solderdude]

only after couple of weeks, one can tell if they like the sound or not, that's why decent headphone manufacturers allow you to return the items, if not liked.

That has little to do with burn in but more to do with new toy syndrome wearing off and brain-in (getting used to the presentation it has).
In some cases a headphone 'grows on you' and in other cases you start noticing (or even get annoyed by) certain characteristics that you either did not notice at first or even liked.

I meant planars, as they do not have the usuall speaker surround flex

DCA headphones are an exception as they do have flexing membranes.
Most planar membranes are very thin and moderately tension-ed and the material stretches a bit.

Do you have measured evidence of substantial enough burn-in effects in headphone drivers somewhere ?
Excursions aren't anywhere as big as those from woofers.

I did not see any (measured) changes in brand new Edition XX vs after being used many hours. It does take me quite a while to get used to the treble.
The weird part is that when I listen to it exclusively the treble seems smoother. But when I use a headphone with less 'coarse' treble and switch back to EdXX again it has grainy treble. Takes a while to get used to it again to not hear it.
When taking it off and listening again this effect doesn't happen. It sounds good in treble from the start.
My brain must be funny this way. I think most brains may be funny that way.

 

[RHO]

I've been looking at a certain reviewer doing experiments with the Sundara and showing measurements. (old pads, new pads, in ear)
From those measurements I can conclude that the new version most probably does NOT have the bass roll-off I assumed it has.
So the Sundara could well be exactly what I'm looking for.
The only reason I haven't bought the Sundara yet is the bass roll-off it shows in many measurements.
If that is not actually there with the most recent iteration, Sundara is the one for me. That would leave some more budget for the rest of the upgrades for my home office system.

 

[solderdude]

From what I have seen from Oratory it is the other way around.
The pre-2020 ones seem to have slightly more subbass but both can be considered bass-shy from a Harman preference p.o.v.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1nxotueyr2nsbi2/Hifiman Sundara (pre 2020 earpad revision).pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o3fza1a4kmmy4vr/Hifiman Sundara (2020 revised earpads).pdf?dl=0

When you use the Oratory target (close to what Crinacle shows, Harman - bass boost ?) it becomes even more visible.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9erfxcj9p6aypig/Hifiman Sundara (Optimum HiFi Target).pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/35pc1dqkp...evised earpads) (Optimum HiFi Curve).pdf?dl=0

 

[RHO]

FFWD to the measurements:

If you have the time, @Resolve talks quite a bit about the different pads and why he thinks many reviewers measure a bass roll-off on the Sundara. Also why Oratory does. So watching most of the thing is helpful.
You think these measurements are not representative for the most recent Sundara?

 

[Ken Tajalli]

I am listening to Sundaras as I write.
They have bass! reasonable amounts, but not sub-bass that much, so no earth shattering synth bass.
New Focus A pads on new Sundaras has helped.
For that I go to my IE400 pro IEM's - they have sub bass!
But what they have, they handle it well, but bass-heads need not apply! no amount of EQ is going to remedy it.
Hifiman, I have HE560 and Sundara, both smooth out, go a little darker in high-mid, bass gets better after about 30-50 hours.
Dan Clark I believe recommends burning in for their headphones.
And just because I don't have measuring equipment to present graphs and numbers, doesn't mean I am telling porkys.
You don't believe it, fine, I am not twisting anyones arm.
To my ears, Sundaras are good headphones that will not offend, will not shout at you, only short coming is limited bandwidth, at both ends!
Vocals, violins, guitars, keyboards all sound clean and good.
Well worth the money, as just about everybody has said before.

 

[solderdude]

Early Sundara seal:

green = perfect seal (pressed on the fixture), purple is glasses, red = seal broken with 6.3mm plug
Do note the gentle roll-off below 100Hz is my own version of 'bass correction' being applied.

Seal issue may make sense. I have seen many folks (including myself) be fooled by pads leaking (not manufactured properly). I use a trick for this.
Even with perfect fit the Sundara is 'bass light' .
This plot was made 3 years ago (mid 2018) b.t.w.

It has been known for ages that pads make differences so there is no mystery there too and part of the 'burn-in' myth, pads forming to your head, softening up and creating better seal. It's why many believe the K70* takes so many hours to 'break-in' (the pads are kind of firm).

I would expect experts like oratory not to fall in this trap but it is possible. I would assume someone experienced would check by putting some pressure on 'shaped' pads to check seal on flatbed fixtures (like Amir, Oratory and Crinacle) and all of these measurements show leakage effects.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

If it is the pads or the drivers , headband or whatever that settles in, burns in, breaks in - I wouldn't want to put a fine point to it.
bottom line (in the context of original argument) , gathering six headphones and quick A/B testing while recording for YouTube, is just wrong.

 

[solderdude]

gathering six headphones and quick A/B testing while recording for YouTube, is just wrong.

When you have 6 different ones and one of them is a true reference and the video could be shot over several days.... why not ?
The trick would be to 'reset' your hearing using a reference headphone and only compare other headphones to the reference.
or use one of the 6 headphones one compares the other 5 to. In that case it is only a comparison to 1 headphone.
That headphone could be one many folks know.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Comparison ?
is that what the guy was doing?

 

[fluufy]

bass-heads need not apply! no amount of EQ is going to remedy it.

Have to disagree there. With the post-2020 version, running almost Oratory eq, my Sundaras deliver plenty of thunderous bass. They can take eq very well without getting wooly or distorted. Only caveat is you need a reasonable amp, as that eq requires around -8dB of preamp, but my Schiit Heresy and SMSL SH9 can both drive them loud enough to rattle my brain.

So bass-heads can apply, if they are prepared to eq.

I agree with your conclusion though - even at Australian prices the Sundara are incredible value for what they can deliver.

 

[MRC01]

LCD-2F is on my list but from what I read not a single Audeze headphone sounds right without EQ. ...

The LCD-2 Fazor has always had the most linear frequency response of the entire LCD lineup, least in need of EQ. It is actually listenable without EQ, but benefits from a gentle lift centered around 3800 Hz. Some also add a bass boost shelf, but I do not, as the Harman curve has too much bass for my taste. The LCD-2F bass extends to subsonic with negligible distortion. If you have any music with clean tight super low bass, hearing it on the LCD-2F is truly a phenomenon to behold.

Note: I own an original pair of HD-580 that I bought back in '99, and a pair of LCD-2F with the 2016 drivers.

 

[Resolve]

You think these measurements are not representative for the most recent Sundara?

Should be representative. I measured one in 2021 and it measured the same as the one in 2020. Crin also measured one recently and it showed the same result: https://crinacle.com/graphs/headphones/hifiman-sundara/

 

[solderdude]

The post 2020 pads version simply is 'better' above 1kHz. More even response all the way up to 8kHz.

For both Crinacle measurements the low bass roll-off points towards seal issues. That may not happen on one's head.
That said.... when you're in love with Harman bass you will have to EQ it but not based on measurements, you may end up with too much sub-lows.

 

[RHO]

Should be representative. I measured one in 2021 and it measured the same as the one in 2020. Crin also measured one recently and it showed the same result: https://crinacle.com/graphs/headphones/hifiman-sundara/

Harman bass is not needed. I like good bass extension. It doesn't need to have a shelf. I can add it when I feel like it.

Should be representative. I measured one in 2021 and it measured the same as the one in 2020. Crin also measured one recently and it showed the same result: https://crinacle.com/graphs/headphones/hifiman-sundara/

OK, that's good news. The FR looks much better with the new pads.

I'm still not sure about the Sundara or Ananda. The Ananda could well be too big for my head and create seal-issues.
HE-6SE v2 would also be nice, but comfort is most likely a no go for me. It's heavy, has lower clamping force... It will most likely just flop around on my head when I move.

 

[RHO]

I've been comparing my Aeon RT closed and HD6XX in the past few hours.
Together with looking at these curves :

I get the impression I could get very happy with the Sundara with 2020 pads.
I think the bass extension on the Ananda is great but the dip at 1.5kHz and then the steep rise to ~3kHz will sound a bit wonky to me.
While I think the bass extension on the HD6XX could be better, on most music it is still OK for me.
I've learned that it's not only the adherence to a certain target that counts but maybe even more a certain balance in frequencies. The Aeon RT closed sounds much brighter, more forward than the HD6XX although it has much less upper mids. But the lower treble is more pronounced in relation to the mids and upper mids. So even though the HD6XX has more energy between 1kHz and 4kHz, it still sounds warmer. And in that region the Sundara is much more similar to the HD6XX than the Ananda is. The Sundara has a much more balanced, smooth transition from below 1kHz into to the pinna-gain region compared to the Ananda. I think that will sound more natural to me.
Any thoughts about my reasoning?

 

[MrBrainwash]

For me eq'ed Sundara is direct evolution of HD650 in planar way. Good warm timbre (not as a specific as senn), better soundstage, better imaging, better resolution, much better bass with decent extention. Presentation is calm but accurate.

HE-4xx are also decent, something between the two. A dense and saturated presentation, but not so warm, with more depth. Sundara is better but I love HE4XX as much or even more. I could say HE-4XX are planar equalivement to HD600.

I recommend you to get Sundara from place with good return policy and check it yourself. If you will like it then then you will have great sound with good VFM and if wont like it then you return them. I did it myself but I didn't like them at the beginning. I gave them credit of trust and don't send them back. This was good choice for me as I think it now.

 

[aandres_gm]

Ananda is a lot more comfortable and has a wider soundstage than Sundara, though. However, at the open-box price of ~170€, Sundara is pretty hard to beat.