Planar magnetic alternative/upgrade from HD6XX

[RHO]

@MrBrainwash : HE-4XX is too expensive when imported in EU.
It has to sound good without EQ. In situations where EQ is available I will use it.
@aandres_gm : For the price of the Sundara I'm willing to pay retail (€350).

There's a shop where I can audition them (Sundara & Ananda) both. But it's not convenient for me to get there. Looking for a nice spot in my agenda to book a visit.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

My views on EQ
I called it "my views", before I get bombarded.
- Any headphone requiring anything more than a gentle EQ to sound right, must be classed as having a design flaw, if you have to apply heavy or sharp EQ , there is something wrong somewhere. Ofcourse gentle, low "Q" EQuing to get the headphones sound to your liking is another matter, so is correcting certain recordings.
- Not every headphone can be successfully EQ'ed.
EQ'ing certain peaks in frequency is a lot easier than bumping up suck-outs and roll-offs.
You see every headphone has a certain "loudness to distortion" value at a given frequency.
see these:


At sub 100Hz, as the output drops, distortion rises, it means the Sundara is having difficulty reproducing those frequencies, if you force its hand, by using EQ to bump-up level at those frequencies, Sundara will retaliate by bumping up distortion.
Using preamp settings to compensate for the lift, will not help this issue at all - but it will make sure you do not go into digital overload which is nasty.
You can also see that distortion levels go up exponentially at higher volumes (2nd graph compare curves).
Sundara is not a candidate for bumping-up lower frequencies by EQ, as distortion values become unreal!
Hence why I said "Bass-heads need not apply". If the distortion levels were much lower to begin with, then why not!
Needless to say, Sundara has enough bass to satisfy, so the issue is not really an issue.

 

[solderdude]

Going on the assumption that the roll-off below 50Hz is a measurement seal issue then distortion levels at these frequencies may also be incorrect.

2% 2nd harm. distortion at 104dB at 30Hz (even with seal slightly broken) is nothing to be worried about and a few B lift to reach Harman bass is not an issue.

agreed about:

Not every headphone can be successfully EQ'ed

I haven't found many headphones that sound near perfect without at least some correction here and there.
What may sound perfect to me may not be what someone else prefers though.

 

[Jimbob54]

My views on EQ
I called it "my views", before I get bombarded.
- Any headphone requiring anything more than a gentle EQ to sound right, must be classed as having a design flaw, if you have to apply heavy or sharp EQ , there is something wrong somewhere. Ofcourse gentle, low "Q" EQuing to get the headphones sound to your liking is another matter, so is correcting certain recordings.
- Not every headphone can be successfully EQ'ed.
EQ'ing certain peaks in frequency is a lot easier than bumping up suck-outs and roll-offs.
You see every headphone has a certain "loudness to distortion" value at a given frequency.
see these:
View attachment 152865 View attachment 152866

At sub 100Hz, as the output drops, distortion rises, it means the Sundara is having difficulty reproducing those frequencies, if you force its hand, by using EQ to bump-up level at those frequencies, Sundara will retaliate by bumping up distortion.
Using preamp settings to compensate for the lift, will not help this issue at all - but it will make sure you do not go into digital overload which is nasty.
You can also see that distortion levels go up exponentially at higher volumes (2nd graph compare curves).
Sundara is not a candidate for bumping-up lower frequencies by EQ, as distortion values become unreal!
Hence why I said "Bass-heads need not apply". If the distortion levels were much lower to begin with, then why not!
Needless to say, Sundara has enough bass to satisfy, so the issue is not really an issue.

I dont disagree- but we swiftly get into murky waters with this :

"Any headphone requiring anything more than a gentle EQ to sound right, must be classed as having a design flaw"

As I pointed out on another thread- we need to define "sound right" - to whom and according to what standard? To someone who the DT990 sounds "right" , the Dan Clark Stealth probably sounds all manner of wrong. I suspect you and I would say the DT990 has the design flaw/ flawed tuning, but the legion of fans would argue different.

 

[MrBrainwash]

I can listen these 3 headphones (HD650, HE4XX, Sundara) without EQ but Sundara with EQ is almost "perfect" for me, and other two gain also better tonal balance.

Even qudelix 5k can give them sub-bass that they are lacking in stock form.

For HD650 I am using this EQ for now.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...iser-hd650-review-headphone.18774/post-641000

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Going on the assumption that the roll-off below 50Hz is a measurement seal issue then distortion levels at these frequencies may also be incorrect.

Measurements from 4 other test results (websites) in recent years, all showing similar results.
Can not assume something away.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

I dont disagree- but we swiftly get into murky waters with this :

"Any headphone requiring anything more than a gentle EQ to sound right, must be classed as having a design flaw"

As I pointed out on another thread- we need to define "sound right" - to whom and according to what standard? To someone who the DT990 sounds "right" , the Dan Clark Stealth probably sounds all manner of wrong. I suspect you and I would say the DT990 has the design flaw/ flawed tuning, but the legion of fans would argue different.

Sounding right means within a few dB of Harman curve wide-band (smoothed). It was studied by the right people and the curve was produced.
Frankly, Sundara is fine as is, what I am arguing is that if you need to EQ in 8dB of sub-bass (as someone suggested) is not the way to go.
Ofcourse measuring headphones is difficult as a small break in seal, positioning etc. can cause problem.
Listening tests seem to be the final say - if it does not sound right to me, then ...
Problem is, electronically boosting something that a certain headphone is having difficulty with is asking for problems. Reducing certain peaks and bloats is much easier.
My Sennheiser IE400 Pros (to me) has a bloated bass to low midrange.
Confirmed by measurements:

I have to reduce the bass by as much as 7-9 dB, but hey by reducing a bump, I'd reducing distortion as well.
But if I was to boost it by same amount, I might push the diaphragm into break up zone.
Indeed, when it comes to sub-bass response, quality and quantity, I have not heard better but its bigger brother IE800s!

 

[solderdude]

View attachment 152913 View attachment 152914 View attachment 152915 View attachment 152916

Measurements from 4 other test results (websites) in recent years, all showing similar results.
Can not assume something away.

My measurement (the first one) is showing distortion and was made without pressing the cups so had a small leak (like the others, because flatbed)
Its also an earlier one (2018)
Rtings measurements are weighted so not comparable for low frequencies.
Tyll's measurements are done with an early Sundara and on a HATS not a flatbed.
The last one is from SBAF and Marv had his distortion de-combobulator program used which gives too high numbers (something is wrong there)

 

[fragzone]

I have been messing with EQ for the first time in my life. I am using Oratory for the 6xx. It is quite remarkable how clean and transparent the 6xx comes with the preset, however I realized when I was drunk (when I tend to have the most insight concerning sound preference) that I prefer the 6xx stock above the bass region. I like the bass shelf and consequently the juicy sub-bass, however I really miss the colouration of the midrange when eqd in that region. The one thing I love about the 6xx is the textures of that midrange so I find it detracting to lessen that despite advantages in balance between mids and treble.

For the Sundara, I have been using Amirim's present and I don't change a thing. Tames that treble and improves the presence of the mid region which I found a little lacking stock. Also that sub-bass is mean when eq'd.

I can thank the moondrop starfield for introducing me to sub-bass because before that I never knew what I was missing and thus never bothered to EQ.

 

[sushi2020]

I am currently renting and using Sundara and Ananda.
(I had owned HD650 before, but sold it because I didn't need an open back with an intimate soundstage.)

Sundara is good in stock response, sounds perfect with oratory1990's EQ. It has detail and sufficient soundstage.
The inner diameter of the earpads is bit small and a little uncomfortable with my ears, but I get used to it after a while.

Ananda offers a unique experience with spatial effects, but considering the errors revealed by Amir, I'm not sure it's worth the price.
Thanks to the large ear cups, it is more comfortable than Sundara, however I personally found the clamping pressure annoying.

As several members said, I don't think Sundara is an upgrade from HD6XX. Both are good headphones and have different flavors.
In conclusion, I will not purchase either of these as I don't feel they are much superior to my current favorite, HD560S.

 

[KeithPhantom]

In conclusion, I will not purchase either of these as I don't feel they are much superior to my current favorite, HD560S.

I got the HD 560S as well and have an HD 800S to pick up later in the day and my LCD-X (2021). They complement my listening experience (all of them EQd to Harman). I use the 560 for when I am on my computer, where I do not have an amplifier with me other than an S9 Pro DAC/amp and UAPP (for EQ mainly). The other two I have because I appreciate them a lot (had the OG HD 800, sold it before I tried EQ but I loved their comfort and their presentation of the music).

 

[spede]

Only true upgrade for HD650 from ~30 headphones I've gone trough is discontinued HE500 if you wish to retain the same sound characteristics like smooth treble, liquid vocals and natural timbre. It is such waste that Hifiman doesn't manufacture that anymore, would be instant buy from me.

 

[aandres_gm]

Ananda offers a unique experience with spatial effects, but considering the errors revealed by Amir, I'm not sure it's worth the price.
Thanks to the large ear cups, it is more comfortable than Sundara, however I personally found the clamping pressure annoying.

Keep in mind the very poor fitting on amir's review may as well render the "findings" useless.

 

[Sharur]

This is a list of passable headphones without EQ from Oratory1990 database.

Out of these, Audeze sine looks most like what you want (if you can find them). They have very low distortion, but I can't speak for the comfort.

 

[RHO]

I just ordered an Hifiman Sundara.
Reasoning: From every review and measurement I have looked at I can expect them match quite well with my preferences. Maybe the Ananda's or HE6se V2 are marginally better at certain parameter I find important. But looking at the price difference I don't think it would be worth it for me.
This leaves a little more budget for the rest of the home-office set I want to build in the coming months.
I'm quite sure the Sundara's will make me happy. (and if not: I can always return them. I bought at a reputable shop)

 

[Ken Tajalli]

I just ordered an Hifiman Sundara.
Reasoning: From every review and measurement I have looked at I can expect them match quite well with my preferences. Maybe the Ananda's or HE6se V2 are marginally better at certain parameter I find important. But looking at the price difference I don't think it would be worth it for me.
This leaves a little more budget for the rest of the home-office set I want to build in the coming months.
I'm quite sure the Sundara's will make me happy. (and if not: I can always return them. I bought at a reputable shop)

Sundara's are good. I got a Sennheiser HD-660S and it lasted only hours before I returned it.
Sundara is much better revealing.
I have no fancy curves to prove my claim that you need to burn in the Sundara's for about few hours for a week. not at high levels, but moderate.
Sound gets warmer and bass will come out.
Test it, let us know.

 

[RHO]

Sundara's came in today. Didn't have time to listen to them for more than 15 minutes.
Build: much better than I expected.
Cable: meh
Comfort: I need a lot of clamping force. I have a narrow head. These have just enough. Less would be not enough.
Sound: I think I like them even more than my DCA Aeon RT closed!

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Cable: meh
Comfort: I need a lot of clamping force. I have a narrow head. These have just enough.

Cable: crap! seen better in £/$ shop. I immediately replaced it.
Comfort: I am a big head, had to loosen it - luckily the spring can be loosened and tightened .

 

[fluufy]

Nice. You will love them. I got used to that stiff cable, I initially replaced it with a much nicer looking but cheap cable from Amazon, but it made the sound worse! It was a bit longer so maybe increased resistance, but went back to original. In a way, making sure that cable sits right when I put them on has become part of the ceremony .

The only thing I have found “wrong” is that these are not just open backs - they are so open you can hear it change the music if you wave your hands around. They need a room to go in. On the plus side of that, you can see daylight through them which is cool.

 

[RHO]

Cable: crap! seen better in £/$ shop. I immediately replaced it.
Comfort: I am a big head, had to loosen it - luckily the spring can be loosened and tightened .

The cable is the stiffer version of the garden hose drummer cable DCA provides with their headphones. I can live with it for now. But I'm comtemplating building a balanced one. The headphones can use some juice anyway.

Nice. You will love them. I got used to that stiff cable, I initially replaced it with a much nicer looking but cheap cable from Amazon, but it made the sound worse! It was a bit longer so maybe increased resistance, but went back to original. In a way, making sure that cable sits right when I put them on has become part of the ceremony .

The only thing I have found “wrong” is that these are not just open backs - they are so open you can hear it change the music if you wave your hands around. They need a room to go in. On the plus side of that, you can see daylight through them which is cool.

I think there's something wrong with the Amazon cable if it changes the sound. The impedance of the Sundara is a flat line (resistor). Having a small resistor in front of it should make no difference in sound, only SPL.

They are indeed VERY open. Exactly what I needed.
I want open backs when I work from home. It's very quite here, but when someone rings the doorbell I want to hear it.
I have closed backs for when the fighter planes are flying over. (I live near a military airbase) But that's not that frequent, luckily.
So or it is very quite and peaceful (most of the time) where I live, or it is very loud (few hours/week). The main reasons why I want both types of headphones.