Pioneer releases new Elite flagship AVR VSX-LX805 with XLR inputs/outputs for front L/R channels

[DrStranger]

with the VSX-LX805 model already floating around at the £2,500 price range, god forbid what the SC models will come in at.

we wont be seeing corret pricing for some electronics for some time. I purchased the vsx-921 years ago for around 400 , that same model range, here, is now 1300.... the vsx-935.... *crazy*

 

[dlaloum]

I believe the tests were done in the sound and vision lab, as those numbers are nowhere to be found on Pioneers website, including the product sheet. Anyway, I think the idea behind the symmetric design (And I am no engineer) is that there are two separate rows of amplifier modules on separate sides of the receiver. This would isolate them from each other so they don't collectively produce more heat. It also appears the heatsinks are of higher quality in the 805, and the device also includes fans. Not saying this will outclass a class d (see what I did there), but it does show they are thinking of different ways to improve heat dissipation and efficiency.

From looking at the details, the outside Heatsinks appear to have fewer transistors connected - perhaps the outside ones are for L&R, and the inside ones for the other channels?

 

[Akical]

Also, you may have been looking at the wrong spot. At the end of the review, it has a section called test bench. This is the first half:

Pioneer Elite SC-95 A/V Receiver Review Test Bench​

Test Bench
Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 132.4 watts
1% distortion at 159.0 watts
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 121.6 watts
1% distortion at 140.8 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 96.7 watts
1% distortion at 108.5 watts
Analog frequency response in Pure Direct mode:
–0.10 dB at 10 Hz
–0.03 dB at 20 Hz
+1.11 dB at 20 kHz
–1.08 dB at 50 kHz.
Analog frequency response with signal processing:
–0.80 dB at 10 Hz
–0.25 dB at 20 Hz
+0.97 dB at 20 kHz
–63.87 dB at 50 kHz.

Just picked up an sc-67 and was looking around for reviews only to find nothing THD 20-20khz rated all channels driven .. the above is for the sc-95

But what I've noticed with the sc series is they've had 2 designs for the class D amp (one of them formerly air studios certified and one not), I bel;ieve the above sc-95 has the cheaper version of the amp. There seems to be significant design changes between the two. Ive attached a pciture of both for clarification. Amir's review of the sc-61 and sc-1223 or 1222? (i also have an sc-1227) were both based on the 'cheaper' amp design, I was wondering if there was any site that has full review for the full d3 amp ? also attached (sc-97 amp assy) . I believe they kept the same 2 designs, with the full d3 amp only in the top 1 or 2 TOTL pioneer recievers, 6th gen d3 amp fully realized in the sc-lx904. (also the digital filter d. filt on remote has 3 settings, defaults to slow/flat) vs the lower end SC amps not even sure how this effects quality of sound but i'd imagine its some sort of sampling threshold.

The main difference seems to be the digital filtering and more big juicy caps (2 on the cheaper version, 6 on the upgraded version, and 8 on the latest sc-lx904 revision), prolly to smooth the things out. Either way new 805 looks BEAST .

Still like to see how the top end 5khz-20khz does on the full d3 amp; I feel like sometimes I'm getting compression or some weird quantisation on the top end only, happens rarely on certain recordings / might even be the recording to be quite honest, not quite sure how to describe it.

 

[DrStranger]

 

[NOAMattD]

Guess the big question will be, does it have the same power limiter nanny circuit as its little brothers and cousins?

 

[dlaloum]

Guess the big question will be, does it have the same power limiter nanny circuit as its little brothers and cousins?

I am sure they will have "nanny" circuits, the question is, how do they tune them - where do they place the limits?
Given a relatively "big iron" AVR like this one, one would hope not to trigger them at 5W/4ohm/30s as was the case with the RZ50!

 

[AudioScience Enthusiast]

In various press releases, the "audiophile-grade ESS Sabre ES9026PRO" DAC is mentioned. I wonder if this finally means better music playback? And also what level of external DAC is required to beat the internal one?

 

[ban25]

In various press releases, the "audiophile-grade ESS Sabre ES9026PRO" DAC is mentioned. I wonder if this finally means better music playback? And also what level of external DAC is required to beat the internal one?

You can't hear a DAC.

 

[dlaloum]

In various press releases, the "audiophile-grade ESS Sabre ES9026PRO" DAC is mentioned. I wonder if this finally means better music playback? And also what level of external DAC is required to beat the internal one?

Implementation will be more critical than chip type.... and using an external DAC simply doesn't work when you need to apply DSP/RoomEQ and surround mixing etc...., as you would then have to re-convert the output via ADC before processing, and then pass it through the AVR's DAC in any case!

The benefits of Room & Speaker EQ, outweigh the differences in DAC performance... by orders of magnitude!

 

[AudioScience Enthusiast]

Implementation will be more critical than chip type.... and using an external DAC simply doesn't work when you need to apply DSP/RoomEQ and surround mixing etc...., as you would then have to re-convert the output via ADC before processing, and then pass it through the AVR's DAC in any case!

Isn't it possible to use "Pure Audio"on the AVR to bypass DSP and RoomEQ?

Now that 805 has balanced XLR input, this makes a good external DAC even more useful?

But then I don't know, maybe the implementation of ESS 9026 on 805 is so good that it negates the need for most external DACs?

 

[Brambo67]

Having 'the best' DAC-chip in your AVR only makes sense for how you perceive the sound coming to you through the speakers (very well described by 'Peng' as the 'placebo-effect') Of course if you have invested in $/€20k speakers with the lowest possible distortion and you are equipped with super-bionic ears, yes then it makes (a lot of) sense. However, even in that case you should ask yourself why listening to an AVR and not separate pre- and power amps. In any other scenario TI's PCM DAC's are doing great. 'dlaloum' also is very right; "The benefits of Room & Speaker EQ, outweigh the differences in DAC performance... by orders of magnitude!"

My house is 'old' with lots of 'soft' material applied on ceilings, walls etc. and rugs on the floor. It's certainly not perfect but I can tell, when I visit friends with super modern houses with tiles flooring and 'clean' brick walls covered by a concrete ceiling, what my 'room treatment' makes a difference. Even when he owns much 'better' equipment than I do. It's one big echo... Of course his wife keeps telling mine how super perfect the sound is

 

[AudioScience Enthusiast]

So, let me try to understand it correctly, @Brambo67 so what you are saying is that Pioneer/Onkyo is selling an illusion that LX-805 is a good AVR by mentioning "audiophile-grade ESS Sabre ES9026PRO DAC" because its various Room EQ methods are actually what's contributing to good performance?

If true, then why do they want to bother mentioning "audiophile-grade ESS Sabre ES9026PRO DAC"?

My question is, isn't Room EQ + good DAC better than Room EQ + bad DAC ?

Also, if Room EQ would wash out all benefits of good DAC chip, then why bother with a good DAC chip in a flagship AVR like this to begin with? Doesn't it just increase the cost?

Looking forward to everyone's insights.

 

[MarcT]

So, let me try to understand it correctly, @Brambo67 so what you are saying is that Pioneer/Onkyo is selling an illusion that LX-805 is a good AVR by mentioning "audiophile-grade ESS Sabre ES9026PRO DAC" because its various Room EQ methods are actually what's contributing to good performance?

If true, then why do they want to bother mentioning "audiophile-grade ESS Sabre ES9026PRO DAC"?

My question is, isn't Room EQ + good DAC better than Room EQ + bad DAC ?

Also, if Room EQ would wash out all benefits of good DAC chip, then why bother with a good DAC chip in a flagship AVR like this to begin with? Doesn't it just increase the cost?

Looking forward to everyone's insights.

Marketing Department.

 

[Mista-p604]

Kinda surprised they're continuing with the Pioneer branding in a way, but capitalizing on the Elite branding makes some sense. Somewhat surprised it's only class AB instead of a better D module based amp setup (even at additional cost).

Why are you suprised the ELITE PIoneer receivers never disappoint. I’ve owned 3 myself. ( n I’m a high end audio guy ) I just happen to use a receiver as part of my system.

 

[Mista-p604]

The previous generation flagship ClassD amps, were rated at 120W - where the new flagship is rated at 150W.

Obviously there would be an efficiency advantage (power consumption) of the old ClassD versions.

I believe I saw the designers quoted as stating that they are looking at ClassD for future pioneers... it is worth noting that all the proposed model numbers that were rumoured over the last 2 years were VSX-LXx05... none of them were SC-LX...

So right now they have opted to design a single shared chassis across the 3 brands.

I doubt we will see Class-D coming back this year or next... but we can hope for a comeback in 2025 .... (SC-LX906?)

Personally I will welcome the return of the traditional Onkyo "Beast" AVR's - they could drive even my difficult (1.6ohm) speakers without stress... the current LX305/505/NR7100/RZ50 cannot do that. ( I have no idea if the previous generation Class D flagships had that ability, as I skipped that generation)

All the flagship PiOnkIo models from 2015 to 2019 used the previous Pioneer Class D chassis as their

So, let me try to understand it correctly, @Brambo67 so what you are saying is that Pioneer/Onkyo is selling an illusion that LX-805 is a good AVR by mentioning "audiophile-grade ESS Sabre ES9026PRO DAC" because its various Room EQ methods are actually what's contributing to good performance?

If true, then why do they want to bother mentioning "audiophile-grade ESS Sabre ES9026PRO DAC"?

My question is, isn't Room EQ + good DAC better than Room EQ + bad DAC ?

Also, if Room EQ would wash out all benefits of good DAC chip, then why bother with a good DAC chip in a flagship AVR like this to begin with? Doesn't it just increase the cost?

Looking forward to everyone's insights.

Pioneer always had better dac chips, better than marantz. Marantz finally upped their game on their chips. Pioneer Elite always been a good value and quality has always been their priority as far as I can see.

 

[Chrispy]

Why are you suprised the ELITE PIoneer receivers never disappoint. I’ve owned 3 myself. ( n I’m a high end audio guy ) I just happen to use a receiver as part of my system.

Well, the Elite name was sold off by Pionkyeer for tvs years ago. I just was more thinking they'd concentrate on the Onkyo/Integra brands and for a while there was little under the Pioneer banner. Guess they decided to stick with the brand. I have nothing against them particularly, but one of the few avr failures I've had was a Pioneer.

 

[MarcT]

Onkyo today announced plans to release the TX-RZ70 this spring, but it doesn't look nearly as nice as the LX805, has 10 wpc less and no XLR connections.

 

[dlaloum]

Onkyo today announced plans to release the TX-RZ70 this spring, but it doesn't look nearly as nice as the LX805, has 10 wpc less and no XLR connections.

The spec sheets look suspect.... they look more like a marketing fluff blurb than like actual doco...

I am hoping that they are an early doc, with the real ones coming out nearer their actual availability!?

Also - if you look at the inside images, the heatsinks are differently shaped on the RZ70 as compared to the 805/8.4, although the rest of the interior looks identical.

Given how similar the interior looks, I am surprised to see a difference in rated power. Is that due to a power supply difference? (hard to tell what is under the pretty cover with the logo on it!) - or is the Onkyo different in some other way? - which perhaps links to it having differing heatsinks?

It is also possible that some of the photos we have seen are pre-production prototypes, and have differences to what will be the final product coming out of the factory - so potentially, the earlier Integra / Pioneer photos could have shown preprod heatsinks, where the RZ70 shows the final production version.... or vice versa...

Lots of questions - and given the skimpy specs issued so far, probably wise to take them with a bit of a pinch of salt.

In terms of heatsink surface area for a 140W (or 150W) x 11 channel amp - they all seem a bit short on heatsink surface area!

The doco however, does talk about having fans to cool the heatsinks, and the layout would be perfect for there to be 2 x 8cm or 12cm fan under the heatsinks....

Fan noise will need to be scrutinised... (but past experience with the brand, has shown there to be no audible trace of the fans in actual use... based on my experiences with an Onkyo SR876, Integra DTR 70.4 and now an Integra DRX 3.4)

 

[dlaloum]

Hmm also looked at the weight of these... according to the specs in the manual: RZ70 = 22kg / 48.5 lb , LX805 = 21.5 kg / 47.4 lb

Probably just the differences in the front faceplate and the differing input/output boards ... not a substantive difference in the power supply or amp boards I would have thought.

 

[MarcT]

The spec sheets look suspect.... they look more like a marketing fluff blurb than like actual doco...

I am hoping that they are an early doc, with the real ones coming out nearer their actual availability!?

Also - if you look at the inside images, the heatsinks are differently shaped on the RZ70 as compared to the 805/8.4, although the rest of the interior looks identical.

Given how similar the interior looks, I am surprised to see a difference in rated power. Is that due to a power supply difference? (hard to tell what is under the pretty cover with the logo on it!) - or is the Onkyo different in some other way? - which perhaps links to it having differing heatsinks?

It is also possible that some of the photos we have seen are pre-production prototypes, and have differences to what will be the final product coming out of the factory - so potentially, the earlier Integra / Pioneer photos could have shown preprod heatsinks, where the RZ70 shows the final production version.... or vice versa...

Lots of questions - and given the skimpy specs issued so far, probably wise to take them with a bit of a pinch of salt.

In terms of heatsink surface area for a 140W (or 150W) x 11 channel amp - they all seem a bit short on heatsink surface area!

The doco however, does talk about having fans to cool the heatsinks, and the layout would be perfect for there to be 2 x 8cm or 12cm fan under the heatsinks....

Fan noise will need to be scrutinised... (but past experience with the brand, has shown there to be no audible trace of the fans in actual use... based on my experiences with an Onkyo SR876, Integra DTR 70.4 and now an Integra DRX 3.4)

Yes, I noticed that the heat sink fins on the Elite are of different lengths and fanned out. And the metal bar they protrude from looks to me like it may be thicker on the Elite. As to the rest of the interior, I do see some differences on that green board in the area sort of between the two fans. I don't know what components they are, but it is a bit different. There are a few there on the Elite that are not there on the Onkyo.