I doubt you can reduce all loudspeakers to the same with DSP. Even something like the 8040 goes almost as low as the R3 while being analogue and a 2-way. Really, we can't say nothing until we have more solid data; and as I understand, Amir doesn't want to go this way because he fears he could damage the speakers.
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Passive vs active DSP speakers KEF and Genelec
- Thread starter HooStat
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All I can say is the 8341 is a seriously expensive speaker and the next larger version is even more seriously expensive. It's a lot to spend on a speaker that will only handle a small space. I realize some around here are in love with them and the excellent measurements are alluring.
I don't know if our host listens louder than average, but he has a very large space. His room is an upstairs loft which has no back wall. It opens into a large area with a very high ceiling. He doesn't use subs with his Salon 2's but I suspect there is some bass EQ.
I don't know if our host listens louder than average, but he has a very large space. His room is an upstairs loft which has no back wall. It opens into a large area with a very high ceiling. He doesn't use subs with his Salon 2's but I suspect there is some bass EQ.
Well, if you consider that it's one of the best speaker available in the world, it's not that expensive anymore. I mean, even with the US price bias, you can get a 2x 7370A + 2x 8351B for $16000 (and $13000 if you "settle" for 2x 7360A) when the Revel Salon2 is $22000 without amplifiers nor DSP. The D&D or Kii with enough sub power to compete would probably be more expensive too; but you'd probably need the ridiculously expensive W371A to compare them directly.
And I'm not even starting to talk about reliability and durability.
Really, comparing floorstanders and bookshelf speakers is always bound to fail. The 8260A/1238A or Neumann KH420 are what you want if subwoofers are out of the question.
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Some of this is that Genelecs are really, really expensive in the US and I'm not sure why. The price of an 8341A on thomann.de is €2,352, in Canada it's ~$2170 USD($3K CAD), but in the US they're advertised at $3000/ea and even that is allegedly a discount from the MSRP. They're definitely an expensive speaker no matter where you go, but considering they have room correction built-in on top of the usual DAC/Amp, I think they're somewhat reasonable. And personally I appreciate getting rid of extra boxes and unnecessary clutter, because I'm not the fiddling-with-physical-equipment type.
The above is a different story if you are thinking of it in terms of "I already have all that other stuff and only need a speaker", certainly.
I'm not sure TBH, but also mind duties and cost of shipping etc. I don't know if there's additional duty on speakers imported to the US. Studio Economik is a good vendor.
That's only your taste. To me, the Revels are all extremely gaudy and even feminine while the Genelec are simply form following function; plus, even the most uninterested person will usually find it cool when you mention that the cabinet is made from cast aluminium.
As a bonus, you can recognize any Genelec even without the brand name on it, I can't say the same with most hi-fi boxes.
Basically, you'll like Revel if you wear a Rolex/Omega, but I'm pretty sure you'll find more Casio/Seiko amongst the Genelec crowd.
The Neumann KH420 are no easier on the eyes than the Genelec’s, maybe less so. They’re an active box. But what a pleasure to the ears.
I owned Salon 1’s many years ago. I have good memories but for having to replace tweeters
I owned Salon 1’s many years ago. I have good memories but for having to replace tweeters
It's hard to compare completely different speakers but a good comparison is the LS50 and LS50W. I took a pair home awhile back to compare with my passive LS50 and to measure the differences and they are basically the same speaker with some DSP for added bass and the wireless version removes the 2k resonance in the passive version. I'd rather add my own EQ and retain the reliability of the passives personally. Here are the measurements I took comparing them with no EQ and then the PEQ I was using that shows about the same EQ in the 2-5k region as the wireless. The wireless were in wall mode with no bass or treble boosts and a 100Hz crossover was applied for these.
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That's a perfect comparison. One caveat here is that you wouldn't know about that 2k resonance without good measurements. Most speakers don't have that luxury.
Amir's review already confirmed that the Genelec he reviewed had limited SPL. You don't have to test a boost for others to notice limited output from actives. I am not saying this isn't a good trade off or anything, but you don't get more low end for free with active speakers. Physics still exist.
FutureFrenzy
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With some DSP-speakers only accepting an analog signal (Neumann), does the additional AD/DA conversion step add anything audible? In the case of Neumann, using KH 750 DSP with KH 80 DSP adds at least two of these additional conversions if I am not mistaken.
Amir didn't "confirm" anything with data, he says himself that this part of the reviews isn't meant to be taken as seriously as the Klippel results. As I said, there's indeed almost no inherent advantage to active technology except steeper crossover slopes, which do matter near the limit. There might be something with damping factor or something due to the lack of any inductance between the amplifier and driver, but I haven't seen research about this (except the way greater need for power in passive designs' bass section).
Anybody can turn up smaller speakers and hear them reach their breaking point, that has nothing to do with being subjective or something. I seriously doubt that you can play 10hz lower at the same SPL with similar size drivers without sacrificing something else. Basically your statement comes down to that Genelec's 6.5" woofers (or whatever size they are) are far superior to what KEF produces. It has nothing to do with amplifier power, you can easily get enough power to literally break the drivers for both of these speakers.
Of course the 8341A won't play as loud and low, the woofer's sensitivity in that small box must be low. But you have to consider some minor things that adds up:
* Use of aluminium for the enclosure means a greater internal volume because you don't need as much wall thickness.
* Said steeper crossover slopes help for the last dBs.
* You can get enough power if you use some Crown/Behringer powerhorses, which isn't that common amongst hi-fi users; because the losses due to the multiple passive crossovers (mainly the woofer's) can be as big as 50% and you already need a lot of power due to the highly dynamic nature of some music.
If you value Amir's SPL test, you may read all the others that say that even in mono, the 8331A is enough to deafen them without ever reaching its limit. Add the 6 dB gain of using two, add another 4-6 if close to the wall and you're probably safe; without mentioning that these are nearfield speakers and that you'll need a sub even with the KEF if you want a setup worthy of the price you paid.
I'm not talking about cabinet size, I'm talking about the physical limitations of the drivers that are used. And you are really going to argue that 250W amplifiers aren't going to drive a 6.5" woofer into clipping with ease, even on a passive model?
Drivers without cabinet size mean nothing, as both of these influence sensitivity (which means that 250W won't mean the same thing). Honestly, I don't think that the cone itself is the SPL limiter, the surround, spider and heat compression might be the collective bottleneck; of course, with 1st order crossovers, the driver's excursion outside of its comfort zone might be it.
See what the JBL 705p or Neumann KH120A can do with small 5" woofers:
(blue: 1% THD and red: 3% here)
Or just look at Devialet's small Sphere, Purifi's new driver, etc... driver advances aren't finished.
