Passive speakers <$500/pair

[andreasmaaan]

Here is an absolutely terrible picture of my desk, guest staring ひかる my pet conure.

Perspective is kind of wonky. The two landscape monitors are 27", the portrait is 23".

I can make space on top of the hutch and get a longer arm for the portrait monitor to turn it horizontal.

Now that is a difficult acoustic space

I'd say your best bet is to mount the speakers up above the screens and tilt them down at your head if possible. Would that work?

 

[maverickronin]

Now that is a difficult acoustic space

Yep. That's what the Stax SR-202 in the corner are for.

I'd say your best bet is to mount the speakers up above the screens and tilt them down at your head if possible. Would that work?

I could probably make that work with gas spring monitor arms and DIY mounting brackets or something.

If I mounted a speaker like that and brought the front baffle even with or in front of the monitors would I still be looking for something with a more even vertical response like the KEF coaxials or or would a conventional 2 way work at that angle and distance?

I wouldn't mind active or DIY options either if that helps.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Yep. That's what the Stax SR-202 in the corner are for.

I could probably make that work with gas spring monitor arms and DIY mounting brackets or something.

If I mounted a speaker like that and brought the front baffle even with or in front of the monitors would I still be looking for something with a more even vertical response like the KEF coaxials or or would a conventional 2 way work at that angle and distance?

I wouldn't mind active or DIY options either if that helps.

Basically, the more difficult the space, the more benefit a coaxial design is likely to bring.

I generally prefer coaxials for small rooms where they have to be close to a desk. This is not like a commonly accepted rule or anything btw, just my own view (which is nevertheless based on solid theory and science to my mind).

The further from nearby up/down surfaces, and the better the room generally, the less important vertical polar response becomes. But there's no obvious answer to your question, and overall sound quality of course depends on so much more than just vertical polars.

Lots of good active options at this price point / size too, although I haven't researched these in enough detail to have a strong opinion.

DIY would be difficult to do competitively at this price point IMO, when you factor in the costs of buying measurement equipment and building boxes, etc. But if that's the path you want to go down, I and I'm sure others here will be happy to help.

 

[maverickronin]

Basically, the more difficult the space, the more benefit a coaxial design is likely to bring.

I generally prefer coaxials for small rooms where they have to be close to a desk. This is not like a commonly accepted rule or anything btw, just my own view (which is nevertheless based on solid theory and science to my mind).

The further from nearby up/down surfaces, and the better the room generally, the less important vertical polar response becomes. But there's no obvious answer to your question, and overall sound quality of course depends on so much more than just vertical polars.

Lots of good active options at this price point / size too, although I haven't researched these in enough detail to have a strong opinion.

DIY would be difficult to do competitively at this price point IMO, when you factor in the costs of buying measurement equipment and building boxes, etc. But if that's the path you want to go down, I and I'm sure others here will be happy to help.

I was thinking more along the lines of a DIY kit or plan but I do have a Dayton measuremnt mic and Scarlett 2i2 I've used for measuing headphone mods. I'd love to do something from scratch when I have more space but would probably need to do a lot of reading first. I checked on Madisound and Parts Express and didn't see many coaxial drivers either.

The coax thing makes sense to me too. I was also thinking full range single drivers might work but they all seem to be put into tall cabinets with rear loaded horns or something to eek out more bass which I don't have room for. I wonder if one would be any good in more conventional sealed or ported enclosure.

I looked though several pages of studio monitors on a couple pro audio sites and didn't see anything coaxial under $250 or so each.

Are there any other brands which focus on coaxial designs as much as KEF?

 

[andreasmaaan]

I was thinking more along the lines of a DIY kit or plan but I do have a Dayton measuremnt mic and Scarlett 2i2 I've used for measuing headphone mods. I'd love to do something from scratch when I have more space but would probably need to do a lot of reading first. I checked on Madisound and Parts Express and didn't see many coaxial drivers either.

The coax thing makes sense to me too. I was also thinking full range single drivers might work but they all seem to be put into tall cabinets with rear loaded horns or something to eek out more bass which I don't have room for. I wonder if one would be any good in more conventional sealed or ported enclosure.

I looked though several pages of studio monitors on a couple pro audio sites and didn't see anything coaxial under $250 or so each.

Are there any other brands which focus on coaxial designs as much as KEF?

Not that I know of in this price range unfortunately. But if you're able to get the speakers up high and away from the desk, I don't think you should necessarily be too fixed on getting coaxials.

If you're interested in DIYing it, a good place to start is Vance Dickason's "Loudspeaker Cookbook" IMO. It covers all the basics of speaker design in a good amount of detail, and gives sensible advice that is supported by research.

 

[maverickronin]

But if you're able to get the speakers up high and away from the desk, I don't think you should necessarily be too fixed on getting coaxials.

Do you think "floating" on mounts above the monitors be enough for that?

 

[andreasmaaan]

Do you think "floating" on mounts above the monitors be enough for that?

So you mean standing on mounts that stick out from the shelf above the computer screens, tilted down to point at your ears? Yeh I reckon so.

I don't know if this helps, but if I could massive over-simplify my take on the research on this topic for listening in small rooms, it's as follows:

• the more "breathing room" around a speaker, the better
• side wall reflections are good, so long as they're symmetrical (and preferably diffuse)
• the more diffusive a reflective surface is the better
• the more similar in frequency response a reflection is to the direct sound the better
• reflections from desks and consoles are bad; if they must occur, they should be as close in possible in spectrum to the direct sound (hence the preference for point source speakers in such circumstances)
• reflections from the front wall (behind the speakers) are bad
• reflections from the ceiling and the rear wall (behind the listener) are bad, unless they are relatively late-arriving, and preferably diffuse (i.e. higher ceiling, deeper room, irregular surfaces)
• BUT too much absorption, especially when it targets only mid and high frequencies (as is commonly the case) is also bad

*By "good" or "bad" I mean either increasing or decreasing listener preference / speech intelligibility in controlled studies using artificial "reflections" (delayed secondary sources) in anechoic chambers, where such research is conducted.

 

[maverickronin]

So you mean standing on mounts that stick out from the shelf above the computer screens, tilted down to point at your ears? Yeh I reckon so.

That's pretty much what I'd have to do because of space constraints if nothing else. Maybe I should try the JBL 305 MKIIs then. They seem to be the reigning budget kings...

 

[Ron Texas]

Q Acoustics, 3020 and various other models for under $500/pair.

 

[bakker_be]

Q Acoustics, 3020 and various other models for under $500/pair.

If you don't mind their very "polite" sound. To me they lack a bit of bite

 

[Ron Texas]

If you don't mind their very "polite" sound. To me they lack a bit of bite

Then you should look for speakers with teeth, LOL.

 

[maverickronin]

So I was doing some more research on some DIY and was looking at some different micro monitor designs using the Dayton ND91. With all the extra mounting hardware I'd have to buy for the JBL 305s I could build a set of active 2 way micro monitors for the same price...

 

[andreasmaaan]

So I was doing some more research on some DIY and was looking at some different micro monitor designs using the Dayton ND91. With all the extra mounting hardware I'd have to buy for the JBL 305s I could build a set of active 2 way micro monitors for the same price...

Interested to see which designs you're looking at? Are they active or passive? Vented, sealed, or passive radiator? Just curious as I've looked at that driver for a similar small project in the past

 

[maverickronin]

I was going to roll my own design but I'm not really sure on too many of the details yet. I still need to do some more research. I was talking to someone on another forum who had good luck doing a 2 way passive with the ND91 and ND16FA from scratch with PSD Lite and started looking into things from there.

So far I was thinking a two way active line level analog crossover with IcePower modules. I just saw a new Dayton tweeter I which thought looks promising as well, the ND13FA. It would be either ported or have passive radiators in order to eek out as much bass extension as possible. I was also thinking that 2 ND91s per channel would be cleaner and help bass extension a bit. Due to space constraints they'd need to be in a sideways MTM, like a center channel. What does that do to dispersion? I'd have the pushed right up to the edge of my desk.

Still in the very early stages of planning though. I need to do some more reading and figure out the simulator. So far I've just figured out that I should be able to get good results with the ND91 and that the cost of parts shouldn't be too bad.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I was going to roll my own design but I'm not really sure on too many of the details yet. I still need to do some more research. I was talking to someone on another forum who had good luck doing a 2 way passive with the ND91 and ND16FA from scratch with PSD Lite and started looking into things from there.

So far I was thinking a two way active line level analog crossover with IcePower modules. I just saw a new Dayton tweeter I which thought looks promising as well, the ND13FA. It would be either ported or have passive radiators in order to eek out as much bass extension as possible. I was also thinking that 2 ND91s per channel would be cleaner and help bass extension a bit. Due to space constraints they'd need to be in a sideways MTM, like a center channel. What does that do to dispersion? I'd have the pushed right up to the edge of my desk.

Still in the very early stages of planning though. I need to do some more reading and figure out the simulator. So far I've just figured out that I should be able to get good results with the ND91 and that the cost of parts shouldn't be too bad.

Nice that you're gonna DIY it PM me if you want some ideas.

 

[oivavoi]

If I could massive over-simplify my take on the research on this topic for listening in small rooms, it's as follows:

• the more "breathing room" around a speaker, the better
• side wall reflections are good, so long as they're symmetrical (and preferably diffuse)
• the more diffusive a reflective surface is the better
• the more similar in frequency response a reflection is to the direct sound the better
• reflections from desks and consoles are bad; if they must occur, they should be as close in possible in spectrum to the direct sound (hence the preference for point source speakers in such circumstances)
• reflections from the front wall (behind the speakers) are bad
• reflections from the ceiling and the rear wall (behind the listener) are bad, unless they are relatively late-arriving, and preferably diffuse (i.e. higher ceiling, deeper room, irregular surfaces)
• BUT too much absorption, especially when it targets only mid and high frequencies (as is commonly the case) is also bad

*By "good" or "bad" I mean either increasing or decreasing listener preference / speech intelligibility in controlled studies using artificial "reflections" (delayed secondary sources) in anechoic chambers, where such research is conducted.

Excellent summary, which aligns with my own impressions from the literature. But I'm not sure about the two bolded points, about reflections from behind the speakers and behind the listener. I'm aware of the assumed rationale for this (the brain supposedly has more difficulty separating out the reflections from the direct sound when they arrive from the front and from behind, unlike reflections from the side). But I have yet to see the experimental evidence for this... even after searching. I wonder if this was an assumption that was written in one or more of the influential publications early on, and which then became a thing "everybody" agreed upon, without examininh the evidence.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Excellent summary, which aligns with my own impressions from the literature. But I'm not sure about the two bolded points, about reflections from behind the speakers and behind the listener. I'm aware of the assumed rationale for this (the brain supposedly has more difficulty separating out the reflections from the direct sound when they arrive from the front and from behind, unlike reflections from the side). But I have yet to see the experimental evidence for this... even after searching. I wonder if this was an assumption that was written in one or more of the influential publications early on, and which then became a thing "everybody" agreed upon, without examininh the evidence.

I don't recall all my sources ATM but I definitely recall a reasonably thorough treatment of it in this study by Yoichi Ando in which reflections from various angles were synthesised in an anechoic chamber and listeners were asked to rate these by preference. The preferred reflection angle was greater than 40°, with reflections from close to 0° (similar to front wall reflections) being least preferred.

There's also a detailed (but not comprehensive) review of various studies in Toole's Loudspeakers and Rooms for Sound Reproduction, which I think is available online in PDF form and which is a great read.

But yeh, as always there is plenty of room for more research on this

EDIT: now that I think about it it, I may have read the Ando results in the Toole article. Anyway give that a read and see what you think (can send it to you if it's hard to find, I don't think there are copyright issues with it).

 

[oivavoi]

I don't recall all my sources ATM but I definitely recall a reasonably thorough treatment of it in this study by Yoichi Ando in which reflections from various angles were synthesised in an anechoic chamber and listeners were asked to rate these by preference. The preferred reflection angle was greater than 40°, with reflections from close to 0° (similar to front wall reflections) being least preferred.

There's also a detailed (but not comprehensive) review of various studies in Toole's Loudspeakers and Rooms for Sound Reproduction, which I think is available online in PDF form and which is a great read.

But yeh, as always there is plenty of room for more research on this

EDIT: now that I think about it it, I may have read the Ando results in the Toole article. Anyway give that a read and see what you think (can send it to you if it's hard to find, I don't think there are copyright issues with it).

Thanks, I'll read it! Wasn't aware of that article. I've read both editions of Toole's books, and he does say that reflections from the front are less desirable. Klippel also says the same in a survey of the literature. But I do recall not being satisfied with the evidence Toole and Klippel offered for that point, and also remember not finding anything when I searched for studies from recent decades. But I'll take a look - and there may very well be studies I'm not aware of!

 

[vert]

I'm looking for new speakers in that price range, and I've narrowed it down so far to:

Active speakers straight out of a DAC:

- Magnat Multi Monitor 220: readily available here in Switzerland; according to a number of German reviews, well made, good sounding speakers
https://www.magnat.de/en/Pro/Multi-Monitor-220/ ; I don't like that it apparently doesn't "remember" the last volume setting set by remote.
- JBL 305s : would fit the bill but I need a remote control

Passive speakers (from a FDA amp), in no particular order:

- the usual suspects: Wharfedale Diamond, Monitor Audio Bronze, Q Acoustics 3020
- some more original choices: Triangle Elara, Q Acoustics Concept 20, Audio Engine passive ? model (on sale), new Klipsch 400 RPs (beautiful design, European price too high), new Dali Oberon 1 (very promising)
- some more exotic models currently on sale by Phonar (German brand, I have one of their subs) and System Audio (Danish brand)
- The Hsus looked very interesting, but would be too large unfortunately, in addition to having to import them.

Then there's this business about FDA amplifiers working better with higher sensitivity speakers; I haven't looked much into that constraint yet.

I'm learning more and more to buy based on what's available locally. Customs and processing fees can be a pain. The above selection goes to show markets can vary quite a bit. I'm not that far from France, and the market is quite different there.

 

[bakker_be]

I'm looking for new speakers in that price range, and I've narrowed it down so far to:

Active speakers straight out of a DAC:

- Magnat Multi Monitor 220: readily available here in Switzerland; according to a number of German reviews, well made, good sounding speakers
https://www.magnat.de/en/Pro/Multi-Monitor-220/ ; I don't like that it apparently doesn't "remember" the last volume setting set by remote.
- JBL 305s : would fit the bill but I need a remote control

Passive speakers (from a FDA amp), in no particular order:

- the usual suspects: Wharfedale Diamond, Monitor Audio Bronze, Q Acoustics 3020
- some more original choices: Triangle Elara, Q Acoustics Concept 20, Audio Engine passive ? model (on sale), new Klipsch 400 RPs (beautiful design, European price too high), new Dali Oberon 1 (very promising)
- some more exotic models currently on sale by Phonar (German brand, I have one of their subs) and System Audio (Danish brand)
- The Hsus looked very interesting, but would be too large unfortunately, in addition to having to import them.

Then there's this business about FDA amplifiers working better with higher sensitivity speakers; I haven't looked much into that constraint yet.

I'm learning more and more to buy based on what's available locally. Customs and processing fees can be a pain. The above selection goes to show markets can vary quite a bit. I'm not that far from France, and the market is quite different there.

If you're "not far from France", you're obviously in Europe, so I'd advise you to look at Teufel as well. To me they easily hold their own against the "usual suspects" on your list.