PA is not home Hifi

[fpitas]

My two cents on this subject. FWIW, I don't like the sound of the titanium diaphragms as used in (for example) JBL 2426 1" compression drivers. They are indestructible for PA use, but rather metallic sounding for home use. I recommend replacing the diaphragms with Radian aluminum versions, when available.

 

[gino1961]

i am seeing some very high end speakers that look like luxury PA speakers to me ... one case here below

i would prefer the bass in a separate box by the way

 

[Tangband]

I've noticed one thing. As for examples of cables (sound quality and external influence on cables), in/outputs (balanced unbalanced), speaker elements that produce heat and its effect on sound production are sometimes referred to the PA world. This PA world and its challenges and problems are transferred to home HiFi. Why? Why are there those who believe that home Hifi have the same problems as the PA world? I do not understand how there are those that can draw that conclusions?

PA is PA and there, for example, possibly, really long speaker cables might affect the sound, or? Really long, tricky conditions, possibly. I do not know. I do not work with PA, but Hifi at home?

Some PA amplifiers have an unswitchable HP-filter kicked in at 15 Hz , sometimes even higher, making them not perfect for subwoofer use. They often have rather high distortion , but often lots of power. . Many of them have terrible sounding cooling fans.

Some of those PA amplifiers were popular and recommended at faktiskt.io some years ago, but in reality ( thanks to Amirms measurements ) many of them, just like AVR:s, wasnt really good at all. Lots of power for the bucks, though.
I sold my crown xli1500 three years ago, I had them only for subwoofer use at that time. Lots of power, but they didnt sound as articulated in the bass as a cheap tpa3116 class D amplifier I tried.

 

[DanielT]

Some PA amplifiers have an unswitchable HP-filter kicked in at 15 Hz , sometimes even higher, making them not perfect for subwoofer use. They often have rather high distortion , but often lots of power. . Many of them have terrible sounding cooling fans.

Some of those PA amplifiers were popular and recommended at faktiskt.io some years ago, but in reality ( thanks to Amirms measurements ) many of them, just like AVR:s, wasnt really good at all. Lots of power for the bucks, though.
I sold my crown xli1500 three years ago, I had them only for subwoofer use at that time. Lots of power, but they didnt sound as articulated in the bass as a cheap tpa3116 class D amplifier I tried.

You have a point but if we take this PA amp as an example:

Behringer A800 Stereo Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Behringer A800 Class D Stereo Amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member. The A800 costs US $299 including free shipping from multiple sites. The member who loaned it me has done a youtube video of it which you can see by clicking on this...

audiosciencereview.com

Convection-cooled, so no fans. We can probably agree that its power is more than enough for "normal" home HiFi speakers. I know that there are those who have used the Behringer A800 as a subwoofer amplifier.
BUT to power up HiFi speakers, is it sufficient? It seems to have a low enough noise floor and that level of distortion I highly doubt I would hear. Or rather, I don't hear distortion at such a low level. The high power ensures that it is not driven into clipping. The A800 at the price of US $299 (when Amir tested it in 2019).
So it is not an expensive amplifier that delivers that performance:

 

[Tangband]

You have a point but if we take this PA amp as an example:

Behringer A800 Stereo Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Behringer A800 Class D Stereo Amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member. The A800 costs US $299 including free shipping from multiple sites. The member who loaned it me has done a youtube video of it which you can see by clicking on this...

audiosciencereview.com

Convection-cooled, so no fans. We can probably agree that its power is more than enough for "normal" home HiFi speakers. I know that there are those who have used the Behringer A800 as a subwoofer amplifier.
BUT to power up HiFi speakers, is it sufficient? It seems to have a low enough noise floor and that level of distortion I highly doubt I would hear. Or rather, I don't hear distortion at such a low level. The high power ensures that it is not driven into clipping. The A800 at the price of US $299 (when Amir tested it in 2019).
So it is not an expensive amplifier that delivers that performance:
View attachment 253524

This amplifier seems to be much better than the former, the A500 , also tested by Amirm.

 

[Tangband]

Crown xli800 - not good for hifi. But lots of power.

Modern tpa3255 class D has at least 20 dB better SINAD and sounds better if you dont play louder than clipping point.
Some PA amplifiers as I said, have a HP filter at 15 Hz, making them less good for subwoofer use.

 

[Waxx]

The A800 is a quiet decent amplifier as long as you don't push it to it's limits. And it's relative fragile for pa (I would never use it that way for reliability reasons), but for a hifi setting, with the fans repalced to low noise ones, it's a good deal (price/quality) for hifi use, that is true. It's not top of the line, but good enough for most.

The Crown is more rugged, but noisier. But it's still ok for hifi subwoofer use i think, and a lot of power (that you can push to it's limits) for a similar price. And why should that filter at 15Hz be bad for subwoofer use? Even HT does not have signal that low in most cases, and for music it surely doesn't matter, and can protect your drivers. It's a cheap high power amp, don't expect ncore or purifi low noise for that at that power point.

 

[Tangband]

The Crown is more rugged, but noisier. But it's still ok for hifi subwoofer use i think, and a lot of power (that you can push to it's limits) for a similar price. And why should that filter at 15Hz be bad for subwoofer use? Even HT does not have signal that low in most cases, and for music it surely doesn't matter, and can protect your drivers. It's a cheap high power amp, don't expect ncore or purifi low noise for that at that power point.

I you use a DIY linkwitz transformer subwoofer ( closed ) that go well below 20 Hz, you can hear the impact of a 15 Hz HP filter in the amplifier one octave above , thus already at 30 Hz. It gonna sound less powerful.

But you are right in some ways - using a bass reflex loaded DIY subwoofer you need a steep HP filter right below the tuning point. However, to do it right it needs to be perfect implemented at the right frequency.

I didnt say that all PA poweramps have those HP filters that you cant bypass, but some of them have it.
It might be a problem or not.

 

[DanielT]

This amplifier seems to be much better than the former, the A500 , also tested by Amirm.

View attachment 253532

This is what Amir has to say about the two of them:

"Conclusions
The Behringer A800 does what pro amps try to do: provide solid, middle-of-the-road distortion and noise with tons of power in a quiet and light package for little money. The design is stable and better than the A500. As such, I can recommend the A800 as an everyday amplifier."

I you use a DIY linkwitz transformer subwoofer ( closed ) that go well below 20 Hz, you can hear the impact of a 15 Hz HP filter in the amplifier one octave above , thus already at 30 Hz. It gonna sound less powerful.

But you are right in some ways - using a bass reflex loaded DIY subwoofer you need a steep HP filter right below the tuning point. However, to do it right it needs to be perfect implemented at the right frequency.

I didnt say that all PA poweramps have those HP filters that you cant bypass, but some of them have it.
It might be a problem or not.

Why 15 Hz cut off would be something bad I don't understand. It's probably only good to cut out things that you can't hear anyway, as long as the FR goes down to 20 Hz (pancake flat without roll-off to 20 Hz, that is).

From another forum about it:

"In order to eliminate LF "noise" such as air conditioning rumble on the recording, or TT rumble when playing an LP, many electronic units do have a sharp filter below 20 Hz. The idea is that this signal wastes amplifier power, and drives loudspeaker cones in and out, which you can't hear but which causes distortion of higher frequencies that you can hear."

Audiogon Discussion Forum

if an amps frequency response are spec'd out to be between 20hz to 20khz, will it pass information above and below those numbers?For instance will it pa...

forum.audiogon.com

The A800 is a quiet decent amplifier as long as you don't push it to it's limits. And it's relative fragile for pa (I would never use it that way for reliability reasons), but for a hifi setting, with the fans repalced to low noise ones, it's a good deal (price/quality) for hifi use, that is true. It's not top of the line, but good enough for most.

The Crown is more rugged, but noisier. But it's still ok for hifi subwoofer use i think, and a lot of power (that you can push to it's limits) for a similar price. And why should that filter at 15Hz be bad for subwoofer use? Even HT does not have signal that low in most cases, and for music it surely doesn't matter, and can protect your drivers. It's a cheap high power amp, don't expect ncore or purifi low noise for that at that power point.

Fragile, you say. At least I know one person whose A800 broke after a year of use. If it was an exception, if he was unlucky, I don't know. The A800 is probably,hopefully a reliable amplifier for home HiFi use. If it had been badly constructed then one would most certainly have read about it. There is a tendency to create threads about things that are poorly constructed. An example of that:

Poll for Topping PA5 owners only please.

Poll for PA5 owners to report product defects. Discussion for any solutions. I think it would be useful to get a handle on some numbers to estimate just how wide spread the issues are. Addendum: Here is Topping's response to the PA5 issues...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Waxx]

Fragile, you say. At least I know one person whose A800 broke after a year of use. If it was an exception, if he was unlucky, I don't know. The A800 is probably,hopefully a reliable amplifier for home HiFi use. If it had been badly constructed then one would most certainly have read about it. There is a tendency to create threads about things that are poorly constructed. An example of that:

Poll for Topping PA5 owners only please.

Poll for PA5 owners to report product defects. Discussion for any solutions. I think it would be useful to get a handle on some numbers to estimate just how wide spread the issues are. Addendum: Here is Topping's response to the PA5 issues...

audiosciencereview.com

I mean fragile to p.a. standards, for home hifi it's solid enough build, that is no issue. But for touring sound it's very fragile and won't last long. Then you need the rugged enclosure and glued components like Crown has in their amps to make sure they survive the harsh conditions of road use.

 

[Tangband]

This is what Amir has to say about the two of them:

"Conclusions
The Behringer A800 does what pro amps try to do: provide solid, middle-of-the-road distortion and noise with tons of power in a quiet and light package for little money. The design is stable and better than the A500. As such, I can recommend the A800 as an everyday amplifier."


Why 15 Hz cut off would be something bad I don't understand. It's probably only good to cut out things that you can't hear anyway, as long as the FR goes down to 20 Hz (pancake flat without roll-off to 20 Hz, that is).

From another forum about it:

"In order to eliminate LF "noise" such as air conditioning rumble on the recording, or TT rumble when playing an LP, many electronic units do have a sharp filter below 20 Hz. The idea is that this signal wastes amplifier power, and drives loudspeaker cones in and out, which you can't hear but which causes distortion of higher frequencies that you can hear."

Audiogon Discussion Forum

if an amps frequency response are spec'd out to be between 20hz to 20khz, will it pass information above and below those numbers?For instance will it pa...

forum.audiogon.com

Fragile, you say. At least I know one person whose A800 broke after a year of use. If it was an exception, if he was unlucky, I don't know. The A800 is probably,hopefully a reliable amplifier for home HiFi use. If it had been badly constructed then one would most certainly have read about it. There is a tendency to create threads about things that are poorly constructed. An example of that:

Poll for Topping PA5 owners only please.

Poll for PA5 owners to report product defects. Discussion for any solutions. I think it would be useful to get a handle on some numbers to estimate just how wide spread the issues are. Addendum: Here is Topping's response to the PA5 issues...

audiosciencereview.com

I think you have to try it for yourself, to hear if there is a problem with a HP filter at 15 Hz, and if its audible In subwoofer use. It depends much on the construction of the subwoofer .

 

[gino1961]

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

 

[DanielT]

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

Thanks for the link to the test!

I found this part of their conclusions interesting:

"How can it be possible that a basic system with such a price difference against the "reference" one, poorly placed, using the cheapest signal cables found, couldn't be distinguished from the more expensive one?"

 

[LouB]

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

Damm, that's disheartening. Or not, my take on that test is that speakers are the key to a system not news to anyone here but what else could it be.

 

[gino1961]

Damm, that's disheartening. Or not, my take on that test is that speakers are the key to a system not news to anyone here but what else could it be.

exactly For this reason recently i have shifted my attention to speakers Even if electronics have always caught my eyes so much more
Also the listening room was the same by the way But it would much easier for me to change speakers of course

 

[gino1961]

i think that for a quite big room a quality PA speaker could work quite well I understand that even Klipsch started as PA speakers manufacturer

https://community.klipsch.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/large.100_1470.JPG.c56c1447ac896ca5fb58a71fbf15cbf3.JPG

 

[FaFaFa]

So, if one wanted to experiment at home, which PA speakers would you recommend? They try to reconcile live experience and sound quality as much as possible.
It would be interesting to make a short list...

 

[monkeyboy]

I use a pair of Yamaha DBR-10s for home theater...they are great....

 

[DVDdoug]

So, if one wanted to experiment at home, which PA speakers would you recommend? They try to reconcile live experience and sound quality as much as possible.
It would be interesting to make a short list...

I can't make a recommendation but small room acoustics are different from a large venue (or an open arena) and it's never going to be the same. I've had my (large) home speakers in a "dance hall" a couple of times and they sound a lot better than in my living room...

You probably want a horn tweeter and a big woofer (or big subwoofer) so you can feel the bass in your body.

...I do use a "hall" or "theater" setting on my home theater system to get delayed reverb in the rear, but it's just a "simulation" of a larger room. And to me there's something "psychological" about loud music in my living room that makes me uncomfortable. I wouldn't want the sound of an actual live rock band or full orchestra in my living room!

 

[RCAguy]

I used to think the same as you, home audio is about achieving the best reproduction of music possible in your house, PA is about producing high sound levels for big crowds inside big venues or outside. So I accepted that PA systems sounded different then home systems.

Nowadays I'm not so sure about that anymore. Ofcourse for a home system you don't need the high sound levels required for PA but some of the techniques used in PA loudspeakers are also usable in home systems, active crossovers and DSP it's the same. Also I prefer balanced connections over unbalanced, unfortunaltely in home audio that is still not a standard.

About sound differences, recently I had to replace a crossover in a JBL sound system in a medium sized hall and first I applied the crossover settings as advised, that was OK but then I did some measurements with REW and played a bit with the crossover settings to improve the measurements (main problem was an enormous dip around 100Hz, probably from the room). I was really amazed about the sound quality I finally was able to produce with this 23 year old PA system.

So I think PA and home audio although they serve a different purpose both kan benefit from the knowledge and techniques used.

About long cables affecting the sound, that is definitely possible, but then you are talking really long speaker cable >50m and that will (probably) never be the case in a home audio system. I once experienced that in a big sound system, it took us a long time and a lot of work to find the problem because it was literally the last option we had to find the problem.

Agree, PA came first a century ago along with cinema sound and radio broadastong, followed by electrical recording on disk, all derivative of telephone research. Home reproduction continued for decades on Victrola mechano-acoustic players, electronic hi-fi taking off in the early 50s when I got in the hobby. Then consumer and commercial sound diverged, the former seeking quality at the lowest price point, the latter seeking SPL and reliability. They coincide most in studio (tending toward ultimate quality) and cinema sound (tending toward moderately high SPL with quality to high engineering standards, such as THX, Many commercial products, loafing at home levels, are in fact (not in hype) as good or better than many so-called high-end components.