PA is not home Hifi

[DanielT]

I have never seen the esoterics building moon rockets, formula1 cars and good audio systems, never.
But some of them a realy great in arts.

Edit says: Thats why i prefer that the technical people do the technical things, and the esoterics stay in the art.

What is a bit tricky with music and hifi is these so-called emotions. I had this discussion with a friend this summer. Incidentally, a smart intelligent person (more so than I am. My friend is an engineer, had top grades and so on). Regarding his newly purchased used vintage hifi system that he placed in the summer cottage.

Me: Why did you buy that (okay I happened to have a slightly negative tone, subtext bought that shit. Nothing I said but ..).
Friend: What do you mean now? It's nice vintage hifi. Warm sound you know.
Me: Hot and warm. Depends on what you mean by that. Colored maybe
Friend: Yes it's good. Damn how nice it looks, or what do you think?
Me: Sure sure it looks vintage. It's a matter of taste. But regarding the sound, it may not really reproduce recordings as it is supposed to sound.
Friend. And?
Me: Well, it depends on what you're after.
Friend: Just a matter of taste, how you want it to sound.
Me: Sure, but such an old Hifi. You may need to replace electronic components in the amplifier?
Friend: Perfect, then I will have a little to do in the evenings.

Of course he is right in such a way that people can think what they want and appreciate what they want. I was a diplomat, I thought, but still a besservisser.

Then we stopped disagreeing and swore to his sour old two-stroke outboard engine that would not start. Old useless junk. In any case, we completely agreed.

 

[tomtoo]

What is a bit tricky with music and hifi is these so-called emotions. I had this discussion with a friend this summer. Incidentally, a smart intelligent person (more so than I am. My friend is an engineer, had top grades and so on). Regarding his newly purchased used vintage hifi system that he placed in the summer cottage.

Me: Why did you buy that (okay I happened to have a slightly negative tone, subtext bought that shit. Nothing I said but ..).
Friend: What do you mean now? It's nice vintage hifi. Warm sound you know.
Me: Hot and warm. Depends on what you mean by that. Colored maybe
Friend: Yes it's good. Damn how nice it looks, or what do you think?
Me: Sure sure it looks vintage. It's a matter of taste. But regarding the sound, it may not really reproduce recordings as it is supposed to sound.
The friend. And?
Me: Well, it depends on what you're after.
Friend: Just a matter of taste how you want it to sound.
Me: Sure, but such an old Hifi. You may need to replace electronic components in the amplifier?
Friend: Perfect, then I will have a little to do in the evenings.

Of course he is right in such a way that people can think what they want and appreciate what they want. I was a diplomat, I thought, but still a besservisser.

Then we stopped disagreeing and swore to his sour old two-stroke outboard engine that would not start. Old useless junk. In any case, we completely agreed.

At the end its all about fun. No need to fight.

 

[More Dynamics Please]

Public address is one of many subsets of pro audio. Other subsets include such things as studio monitoring, cinema, live performance (both installed and portable), etc. Certain pro audio speakers are considered by many to be more applicable for home theater use than home audio for music only. Many home theater rooms aren't significantly different from AV-equipped corporate conference rooms where pro audio equipment is used. A few believe there is some merit in using live performance speakers for listening to music at live performance sound levels in a home environment.

 

[DanielT]

At the end its all about fun. No need to fight.

We argued the way old friends can do. It was a friendly, teasing tone. He immediately understood what I was looking for and of course played a little naive. He liked to get me a little frustrated. I did not understand that then. As said .... I had this discussion with a friend this summer. Incidentally, a smart intelligent person (more so than I am...

 

[tomtoo]

We argued the way old friends can do. It was a friendly, teasing tone. He immediately understood what I was looking for and of course played a little naive. He liked to get me a little frustrated. I did not understand that then. As said .... I had this discussion with a friend this summer. Incidentally, a smart intelligent person (more so than I am...

If you are in electronics vintage gear has some real nice sides. Looking into a good old Eisenschwein(good old PA class AB amp) has something.I mean they are macho.

 

[pozz]

Well, there is also the issue of feedback from microphones. If the home audio system is all-digital, there isn't a chance of feedback. Turntable-based systems have issues with feedback, but nothing on the scale of the issues with PA.

Sure, but I would consider that part of the gear complications I mentioned.

Not too different from a karaoke night at home. Plus, some PA contexts require minimal use of microphones.

 

[Robin L]

Sure, but I would consider that part of the gear complications I mentioned.

Not too different from a karaoke night at home. Plus, some PA contexts require minimal use of microphones.

I was going by common language usage: PA, in most contexts, points to the use of amplification at a live performance in order to get the sound to the audience. I do not recall PA being a common term for pro audio, though I have little doubt that many folks at this forum have used the abbreviation in this way.

I recently assisted with a DJ-ed dance, adjusting the eq to keep everything below 50hz out of the powered PA speakers [there was a big and powerful JBL powered sub], and trying to integrate a couple of Technomad passives [outdoor speakers designed to survive almost any weather but sound like they would be best for a classic public address system at a baseball game]. That was a situation where feedback wouldn't be an issue.

And soon after, I assisted with a Zoom of a music group for an elementary school, trying as best I can to capture seven musicians with four microphones. The monitor for the musicians produced a little feedback [resolved by turning the volume down a tad].

I guess the same issues [for the most part] apply to home audio, pro audio, semipro audio, amplifying music in larger spaces---the whole megehilla. It's simply a question of scale.

 

[Chrispy]

Thanks for the clarification. Jim

I grew up with it more referring to public address as in casting voices particularly to large audiences, or perhaps wider frequency range of other audio but not full frequency range.....

 

[tomtoo]

I grew up with it more referring to public address as in casting voices particularly to large audiences, or perhaps wider frequency range of other audio but not full frequency range.....

At least in germany we call this systems ELA.
Lets say for a stadium, with transformers.
While PA is the thypical live act amplification without transformers,

 

[Chrispy]

At least in germany we call this systems ELA.

What does that acronym work out to in english?

 

[tomtoo]

What does that acronym work out to in english?

Elektroakustische Anlage – Wikipedia

de.m.wikipedia.org

Elektro acustic system=anlage

Edit says: DeepL translation added.
An electroacoustic system, also known as an electric loudspeaker system (ELA), or colloquially as an announcement system, is a public address system and essentially serves to pass on information, especially speech. The systems used are therefore optimised for intelligibility and range and less for authenticity of sound, as is the case with PA systems, which, in contrast to electroacoustic systems, are mainly used for live and concert sound reinforcement. Modern ELA systems, however, come quite close to PA systems in terms of sound quality.

 

[gino1961]

Hi thank you for this very interesting thread I would like to add a comment or two
When you go to listen music at a rock/pop concert or in a jazz club it is very likely that you listen the music through a PA system of various quality
So if you want to recreate THAT live experience for me PA systems are really the way to go
And more important the quality that you CAN get in a good listening room is way above that one you can get in a noisy club or in the middle of a sweating/screaming/molesting crowd
Of course PA systems come with different quality and price But still the principle sounds sound to me
Moreover when i look at some high end big studio recording monitors i see often something that looks like a very high quality PA system in the end
imho

 

[gino1961]

Looks can be deceiving. . I really, really doubt that you will want to use PA system, even with EQ, for listening to recordings. Their off-axis response is simply too uneven.

Jim

Hi thank you very much for the kind and very valuable advice. I got a more extended reply from you by email ... i dont know what happened. Anyway let me comment briefly to some of the extremely interesting issues you have raised

Looks can be deceiving
I agree absolutely. The visual experience distracts from the pure listening and influences the listener That is the main reason for blind testing
High end speakers are very well crafted with exotic materials and nice looking to convince the buyer to spend a premium price. And also they look at the wife acceptance factor. Wives usually look at speakers as another piece of furniture. They would hardly accept PA speakers in the living room ... (just guessing here, as i am not married)
More technically speaking i had a personal experience that made me think. I had the opportunity to listen seriously to a pair of huge JBL 4350
After some warm-up the speakers disappear sonically if you know what i mean. The sound was coming clearly from a plane way beyond the speakers ... my eyes were seeing these huge boxes but i could not hear them
I had always thought that only small speakers can disappear The sensation of the speakers disconnected from the system with the sound coming out from the space around them.
This experience changed completely my mind
I think that the really best way to listen to a system is listening in the dark ... or blindfolded The only way to concentrate exclusively on the sound.

Repeated recordings of a same played back track (sorry for the english)
The first time i heard about this kind of test actually it was from a quite famous PA speaker designer i.e. Mr.Tom Danley of Danley Sound Labs

Synergy Horn Family of Loudspeakers | Danley Sound Labs

Delivering full range audio thanks to our proprietary single source technology, the SH family of loudspeakers offers targeted, crisp sound that can cover a whole range of needs.

www.danleysoundlabs.com

He is an advocate of this kind of test and i am pretty sure his PA speakers come out exceptionally well from this very challenging test.
I thing that the truth is that not all PA speakers perform at the same level. There are also high end PA speakers i mean.
There is a guy here where i live (Italy) who has a Youtube channel
After a long experience with also high end speakers ended up with an Electrovoice Deltamax system.
Clearly he has attracted the criticism of many operators in the business. I tend to think that he is right about his system providing a very high quality sound.

off-axis response
i dont know you but i usually listen on-axis And usually speakers are optimized for an on-axis response
Horn loaded drivers, like the compression drivers in your wonderful Altec, have limited/controlled dispersion. In a domestic environment this can be a good thing
You have to treat acoustically fewer walls. I am not sure that room placement is more critical with PA speakers than domestic ones. Size aside. Now domestic speakers are slimmer I see a lot of tower speakers
Moreover i see more and more speakers with lenses or horns used as sound guides ... maybe the concept is sound After all a 180 degree dispersion is not needed.
i do not like omni ... and planars The 3D sound image is less focused

I will occasionally listen to live bands in clubs, and I don't hear anything in the PA systems that stands out as really, really different from thirty-some years ago.
I have been to clubs in the past and i agree with you. But this could be related to PA systems of low quality or bad acoustics of the room.
You can have much better sound in some movie theaters ... and they do not use domestic speakers for sure. They are sourced by Meyer Sound.
I have been to one and i was floored by the power and the cleaness of the sound. They also play video concerts with amazing results.

If i had a big listening room (that unfortunately i do not have) i would not exclude the option of trying good quality PA speakers, like the above mentioned Deltamax or Danley Sound Labs or JBL etc.
My feeling is that they could provide a high end performance, at a fraction of the asking price for a domestic high end system of similar level.
I agree also that usually the PA speakers are ugly looking.
But as you very well says ... "Looks can be deceiving"
Thank you very much again.
gino

 

[DanielT]

For me, PA is mostly associated with being able to play loud. And speaking of that, if you want to be able to play loud at home AND have speakers with good FR (if you likes that kind of sloping FR), then I can imagine that these are a good solution. Good SPL, low distortion. It makes it possible to play loudly. Double 15 bass drivers in the CV CLS-215.

"Cerwin Vega CLS-215 Loudspeakers: Measurements

PLEASE NOTE: Our standard is to provide the THD+N measurement at 90dB with a measuring distance of 2 meters (within the anechoic chamber). Since this speaker produced very low distortion levels under those conditions, we have added a second measurement performed at 95dB to give an indication of performance under higher-output conditions. In addition, we have also provide an additional Deviation from Linearity measurement at 100dB based on the good performance at 95dB."

SoundStage! Measurements - Cerwin Vega CLS-215 Loudspeakers (12/2007)

In the video below you can see the CLS-215 and next to them I think there is a pair of Focal Aria 926 floor speakers. The Focal has double 6.5 inch woofers. They're not exactly small those CLS-215. For home HiFi probably too many too big but I think they look interesting. Seems to be EQ friendly as well, although the best is if you like the sloping FR curve the CLS-215 has, then you avoid EQ as much that is.

1:30 into the video so much bass that the camera vibrates, heh heh.

 

[Waxx]

Some say here that P.A. systems are always ment to be clear and neutral sounding, but that is certainly not true. Some music styles require a certain colouration for their dj systems, with as most explicit example, dub and roots reggae. It goes that far that they build their own high power systems tuned to their wishes (which is far from flat). These systems can als be +50kW and those dances with those kind of "soundsystems" are hugly popular. Similar systems are also used in the underground jungle, DnB and oldskool dubstep scenes. This is an example, build by a friend who sells this kind of systems (Stakx Sound Solution) like used on the Irie Vibes festival in Kortemark, Belgium last summer. The guy in the picture is the builder of the system.

This is also very well engineerd, active with dsp. It's all desgined by experienced people, and custom. And this system (it's halve of what is used on this festival) was more than enough for a few thousand of people. It's tuned to 30Hz and never felt stressed that night. But it's not clean sounding, it's very coloured and bass heavy.

And you even got soundsystems like that who run full on tubes, like Axis Valv-A-Tron. Last time i saw them they were using about 3kW of tube amps to outpower a 30kW L-Acoustics line array (in the same space, but used by an other dj). Their system was just more powerfull in the subjective way and sounded a lot better with the music played. But it was also (deliberate) very coloured.

(Axis Valv-A-Tron stack at Dubcamp 2016)

(a part of their valve amp stack)

But the mainstream P.A. is trying to be neutral, clean and wide dispertion, that is true. And on that it's not that different than hifi. Just the scale is different. Both learn from each other, and techniques used can be used by both mostly.

 

[DanielT]

But the mainstream P.A. is trying to be neutral, clean and wide dispertion, that is true. And on that it's not that different than hifi. Just the scale is different. Both learn from each other, and techniques used can be used by both mostly.

I buy that because it seems reasonable but if we are talking about PA for home use, home HiFi. We disregard the size of PA speakers (which of course you cannot do in practice) so a system with lots of power in the combined listening room/living room. The problem of possible audible noise. At low volume, perhaps even at low normal listening volume, there is the risk of noise. It disappears at higher volumes, but you can hardly even play that loud in a regular apartment considering the neighbors. Even without neighbors considering one's ears, hearing damage.

Speaking of noise, even if it's just kidding to exemplify, certainly an overly obvious example in and of itself but still:

The obvious example is PA amps that are cooled with fans. At home HiFi, that fan noise can be annoying, but it is not heard at higher volumes. When used at night clubs, outdoor arenas and so on. Where the fan-controlled PA amplifiers are intended to be used.

 

[gino1961]

Passive speakers do not have self noise. Maybe distortion.
Lately i have come to the conclusion that high efficiency is a very good thing to have. And usually PA speakers have it.
I have an old PA amp from QSC the USA 400. No fans (passive cooling).
And if you use efficient speakers in a medium size room you can get very decent SPLs. And quite clean sound. imho

 

[Waxx]

Passive speakers do not have self noise. Maybe distortion.
Lately i have come to the conclusion that high efficiency is a very good thing to have. And usually PA speakers have it.
I have an old PA amp from QSC the USA 400. No fans (passive cooling).
And if you use efficient speakers in a medium size room you can get very decent SPLs. And quite clean sound. imho

That USA 400 amp is also a very atypical "pa amp". It's QSC, but it's more build like an class AB hifi amp, and only gives 110W in 8R. It was very likely ment for small bars or shops or so, not as amp for real high volume p.a. Even most hifi amps today are more powerfull...

 

[gino1961]

That USA 400 amp is also a very atypical "pa amp". It's QSC, but it's more build like an class AB hifi amp, and only gives 110W in 8R. It was very likely ment for small bars or shops or so, not as amp for real high volume p.a. Even most hifi amps today are more powerfull...

Hi thanks a lot for the valuable advice. I was looking at things from my POV ... i do not need many watts Some 200W/4 ohm for me is more than enough
And yes more powerful PA amps have always noisy fans That is a problem that limits their use in home situations

 

[Digby]

I can decide if those Rey speakers are the most beautiful thing speaker seen or the most ugly. Certainly a statement either way and much more interesting than most loudspeakers.