New product: Arvus H1-D

[chelgrian]

The H2 uses the Broadway that’s been discontinued and there’s no replacement for it. The H1 uses software based Dante which must slave to an external hardware based Dante device. In order to sync with the video, the source must have a hardware based Dante implementation. I know of no sources with HDMI outputs which also have a hardware based Dante implementation inside.

It is true that a software implementation needs a Dante clock leader elsewhere on the network.

However for playback the clock drift between that and the video clock really isn't a concern and as I said previously the latency compensation will be done manually in a studio environment.

Having multiple clocks in the system is far more of a concern when recording where the differences in the rates between multiple devices can and do cause takes to be slightly different lengths on playback.

 

[chelgrian]

AES 67 is an audio over IP protocol and allows for interoperability between other protocols. According to their latest newsletter this box supports Dante up to 48 kHz (due to limitations in the Dante protocol), and AES67 up to 96 kHz.

It must be a limitation in the software in this box not Dante itself. Dante Virtual Soundcard on a PC is perfectly capable of doing 32 channels at 96KHz and certain hardware implementations can do far more than that.

 

[ShadyHarbinger]

AES 67 is an audio over IP protocol and allows for interoperability between other protocols. According to their latest newsletter this box supports Dante up to 48 kHz (due to limitations in the Dante protocol), and AES67 up to 96 kHz.

It's the limitation of the underdesigned hardware, not Dante. In my opinion, Arvus H1-D seriously limits existing HDMI capabilities.

 

[aphysically]

Not clear what to make of the importance of the video sync comments for home theater use. Interestingly for my case Genelec now has launched a input management system that takes AoIP input incl AES67 directly, (Genelec 9401A), but it’s $3500 vs the AES3 input version which is only $1150, so as long as you can find a 16 channel AoIP to AES3 conversion for less than $2350 it doesn’t make sense to buy except for saving on extra cabling/devices. That seems to be about what they cost so maybe you just eat it and get that. But I would still need to figure out my phantom center and make sense of the video sync concerns.

 

[chelgrian]

Not clear what to make of the importance of the video sync comments for home theater use. Interestingly for my case Genelec now has launched a input management system that takes AoIP input incl AES67 directly, (Genelec 9401A), but it’s $3500 vs the AES3 input version which is only $1150, so as long as you can find a 16 channel AoIP to AES3 conversion for less than $2350 it doesn’t make sense to buy except for saving on extra cabling/devices. That seems to be about what they cost so maybe you just eat it and get that. But I would still need to figure out my phantom center and make sense of the video sync concerns.

The absolute sync that DSPman wants in practice is not necessary for example in a theatre environment we output video from QLab to a Pansonic Projector then output the audio using Dante Virtual Sound Card to a digital mixing desk which is acting as the Dante clock leader. Latency compensation for lip sync is done manually in the mixing desk. This is very similar to the clock topology you'd get using this Arvus.

In practice we do not have any human noticeable audio video sync issues with this setup even after continuously playing back video for a couple of hours.

Now if the Arvus is using something that doesn't follow the clock leader and just sends out a AES67 stream and hopes then that could cause issues however I'd put a support request in to Arvus and see if they comment to find out the answer to that one rather than taking an internet forum's word for it.

There are other AOIP based processors, for example Storm Audio now have https://www.stormaudio.com/produit/isp-evo/ but it's far more expensive.

 

[chelgrian]

Not clear what to make of the importance of the video sync comments for home theater use. Interestingly for my case Genelec now has launched a input management system that takes AoIP input incl AES67 directly, (Genelec 9401A), but it’s $3500 vs the AES3 input version which is only $1150, so as long as you can find a 16 channel AoIP to AES3 conversion for less than $2350 it doesn’t make sense to buy except for saving on extra cabling/devices. That seems to be about what they cost so maybe you just eat it and get that. But I would still need to figure out my phantom center and make sense of the video sync concerns.

The 9401 is interesting but it looks like it's only AES67 and Ravenna based, that's fine for Windows but could be highly problematic on macOS as it may be hard to get DVS to talk to it and VAD is terrible on macOS. It is also unclear if it can provide a clock (so can be spoken to directly by Ravenna Virtual Soundcard or Merging VAD) or requires a clock leader elsewhere on the network.

 

[apgood]

Anything with an HDMI output could be used as a source. In order for Amir to test it he would need an AES67 compatible dac as well. If I buy one I will test it myself.

Just get a q-sys core 110 then you also have audio DSP and control.

 

[Matt_Holland]

I think most people following this thread are looking to use this for a home theatre application where they want the audio to be in sync with the video. And they will be using the HDMI eARC output on their TV’s to feed the Avrus the audio.

Do you think the Arvus works properly for this application? Apologies as I do not understand much of what has been discuss so far with respect to clocks, sync, etc.

 

[ShadyHarbinger]

Folks should keep in mind that Trinnov attempted to get Dante embedded working in their Altitude processors and failed due to inability to use it as a leader clock. If Trinnov couldn’t get it to work properly for audio/video sync, I highly doubt anyone will. Automatic clock sync (latency and skew) is essential to do things right.

Interesting why Arvus picked Dante over Ravenna. As far as I know, Ravenna has no such issues. Any Ravenna device can be the master clock in the Ravenna network. Also, Ravenna supports higher sample rates and more. Not to mention Dante has a licensing fee while Ravenna does not.

 

[Matt_Holland]

I think the clocks will drift apart over time. Even if you manually try to adjust the latencies to match at the start of the video.

Interesting.
Do you have any experience with the
Nexgentec 7.1 processor?

 

[NTK]

How does Dante clocking work? | Dante

Dante devices each contain a very high quality VCXO clock, and are synchronized with one another over the network using the IEEE 1588 Precision Time Protocol (PTP). One device is elected as the Leader Clock to which other devices are synchronized. By default this selection takes place...

www.audinate.com

 

[GXAlan]

However they will need to do work making sure the Ravenna reference clock is clocking the HDMI receiver chip. Then the receiver chip needs to sync to the sender chip in the TV to sync the 2 chips. And it’s likely the chip they’re using for the HDMI input isn’t a true HDMI 2.1 eARC bidirectional chip. Because those are impossible to buy without placing an order of $1000000+ of the HDMI chips alone. So normally only the massive electronics companies can get their hands on them.

Given the hurdles you have with something like this, has anyone figured out what the actual impact of running digital would be?

I disassembled my Genelec 8351B

I just wonder what ADC/DAC chip is in there. On the online, There is no answer about it So I opened my 8351B. After all the processes, I realized that the chip is just in back panel..But I'm satisfied to see what's in there. Anyway, the chip is AKM AK4621EF. Not so high end chip but fairly...

www.audiosciencereview.com

If you look at something like a Genelec 8351b, the ADC is better than the DAC for THD+N, so it’s not entirely clear how bad it would be to have an extra AD/DA step.

At some point, I think the loss you get from very long distances of analog are real, but that is likely to exceed the room size of even a large movie theater since longer speaker runs also means greater distances from to the listening position.

 

[chelgrian]

It’s not necessary to even have a computer involved with an AES67 based setup. Other than for setup and channel mapping.

The Genelec is primarily designed for use in content creation specifically for monitoring immersive formats rather than in any kind of home theatre environment.

It is therefore relevant as to it as a product (but not necessarily to trying to use it for home theatre) if you can talk to it directly from a computer or if you need an extra interface such as

Digiface Ravenna | Portable RAVENNA via USB - rme-usa.com

RME Audio Professional Live, Studio, Recording and Broadcast Solutions. Unrivalled Quality, Performance & Stability MADI Interfaces, Converters & Preamps.

www.rme-usa.com

 

[smaaax]

The hurtles are solved with processors such as the Storm Audio EVO, and Lyngdorf MP-60 with Dante card. JBL’s SDP-58’s implementation seems pretty junky based on reports. But I anticipate we will see more smooth running solutions at lower price points over the next couple years. As it’s only increasing in popularity. Until then the Storm Audio EVO with the Merging Zman board is my go to solution for Atmos, DTS-x etc.

I have been watching this Arvus device for a while now in hopes it would solve the digital Atmos conversion. I have some time to wait, but a solution like the Audiopraise Vanity pro being fed from LPCM sources keeps looking better...

 

[Bulldogger]

Merging’s Linux based Ravenna also lacks grandmaster clock ability. However when Matthew says “Ravenna support coming later” he probably means Merging’s SHARC based Ravenna implementation. That does have grandmaster clocking abilities. So this might just be the solution to make this box work properly in regards to clock sync. However they will need to do work making sure the Ravenna reference clock is clocking the HDMI receiver chip. Then the receiver chip needs to sync to the sender chip in the TV to sync the 2 chips. And it’s likely the chip they’re using for the HDMI input isn’t a true HDMI 2.1 eARC bidirectional chip. Because those are impossible to buy without placing an order of $1000000+ of the HDMI chips alone. So normally only the massive electronics companies can get their hands on them.

I would buy the Merging Hapi and use the 8 channel AES/EBU out to feed my existing external dacs and then use their Digital to Analog card for the other channels. It appears this would work.

 

[Bulldogger]

I have been watching this Arvus device for a while now in hopes it would solve the digital Atmos conversion. I have some time to wait, but a solution like the Audiopraise Vanity pro being fed from LPCM sources keeps looking better...

I have the Vanity Pro and am very happy with the purchase. IMO, it's the first company to solve the audio quality issue with HDMI. Oppo tried but failed. I tried several megabucks processors with the "special" audio feed in from the Oppo and couldn't hear a difference. Audiopraise just made HDMI capable of the same quality as AES/EBU, USB, etc but that seemed like a real challenge for the other companies' products I have used.

The VanityPro works if you use external software to handle delays, and bass management. One of the ways I have it connected, is with the Apple TV sending LPCM into it. My front LR are full range but SRs and C are not with C going down to 80Hz and SRs down to 60Hz. The VanityPro has channel trim adjustments but not delay adjustments. Also, the VanityPro is only 8 channels with no method to decode Atmos.

IF, the ARVUS includes Dirac at some point you can use that for bass management, and it solves most of the issues one would need in a HT environment. You still can only play content with its native channel count. If you are using post processing for something like "center spread," you don't have that capability.

 

[Littletycoon]

Update from Arvus. Hope the link works for you. Don't know what to make of it, i thought things like mpeg 4, aac etc. were already bog standard.

 

[ShadyHarbinger]

Arvus claims it supports sample rates up to 96KHz but what about 8 channel 192/24 LPCM? What does H1-D do with this audio stream? Do not tell me it downsamples because it would be the biggest joke in history

 

[chelgrian]

Arvus claims it supports sample rates up to 96KHz but what about 8 channel 192/24 LPCM? What does H1-D do with this audio stream? Do not tell me it downsamples because it would be the biggest joke in history

Their intended market does not care the majority of Film content is at 48k and even 96k is a rarity.

 

[ShadyHarbinger]

Their intended market does not care the majority of Film content is at 48k and even 96k is a rarity.

Why did they care when H2-4D was designed? Also, H1-D won't be future-proof at all. I think H2-4D is much better. They should have just changed the HDMI chipset in H2-4D. It would be a huge win.