New Philharmonic BMR HT Towers

[gilency]

How do they compare with the ELX?

 

[Everett T]

How do they compare with the ELX?

Both are great speakers, the BMR Towers go a bit lower but with most music it isn't an issue. If you look at the distortion plots and the directivity combined with the other measurements, I'd take the BMR personally, but again neither is a bad choice.

 

[JoshK]

For those, like myself who are curious but not willing to read ~300 posts, can we put a link to the measurements in the first post? Just a suggestion.

 

[BillH]

For those, like myself who are curious but not willing to read ~300 posts, can we put a link to the measurements in the first post? Just a suggestion.

Josh,
Both Philharmonic Audio and Ascend publish measurements on their websites. Ascend has a Klippel and will provide measurements of the loudspeaker you purchase if you want to pay a few extra bucks.

 

[Beave]

I don't know. I have the BMR Towers (original), the Revel F328Be Towers, the Revel F228Be and the Ascend Sierra Tower with RAAL Tweeter. My order of favorite overall speaker is:

4. Ascend Sierra Tower with RAAL Tweeter
I purchased these speakers in late 2020 for about $3200 new. They sound nice with a subwoofer but without a subwoofer they are bit hollow when directly compared to the three models above. The first three speakers in this list sound fabulous without a subwoofer. I really like Towers that have excellent bass reproduction. I enjoy listening to full range speaker where matching a sub is unnecessary for normal music listening. I contacted Ascend to see about updating them to the ELX model. But found they wanted several thousand for parts. I verified my speakers were ugradable but you need to be prepared to take everything out and start over again. Drivers, crossovers, padding, etc... The other problem is the Sierra Tower case volume is a good deal smaller than the F228Be. I decided I would rather spend that money on the Revel F228Be than the smaller bamboo case frame. The Ascend sounds fine. It's just once I heard the F228Be against the Ascend - I completely lost interest.

I'm guessing the Ascend Sierra Towers were the original V1 version and not the newer V2 version?

 

[JoshK]

Josh,
Both Philharmonic Audio and Ascend publish measurements on their websites. Ascend has a Klippel and will provide measurements of the loudspeaker you purchase if you want to pay a few extra bucks.

Those are the links I was looking for.

For those who are looking, here is one:

Measurements

philharmonicaudio.com

 

[Beave]

Seems like you had the V1 towers. I wouldn't expect them to compete with the much larger and much more expensive Revels.

The V2 towers are better. The ELX towers better still.

But the comparable Revel speaker is probably the F226Be, not the 228 and definitely not the 328.

Also, I don't think the Ascends are transmission line. I'm pretty sure it's bass reflex.

 

[Ricardojoa]

Here's the thing. All the Sierra Towers use the same undersized boxey cabinet design with a flat board screwed to the bottom as a stand. It's a simple, basic design. Each cabinet is rear ported full of 160gram of acoustic stuffing. The only variation is drivers and crossover. Ascend charges buyers upgrade fees for new parts to fit the same unimaginative cabinet while issuing a letter with each version claiming it's one of the most advanced audio designs ever. It's kind of a funny design/marketing concept.

How did you end up knowing the cab are undersized? You got the thiele/small pareneter measurements? Unlike the revel, the drivers in the ascend elx are made in serbia and norway

 

[mj30250]

I updated my V1 Sierras to the ELXs. Working carefully, I completed the upgrade for both towers in less than three hours. Changing out the drivers themselves is simple. The crossovers are more difficult to work with as the new boards are quite large and a bit tricky to maneuver in the somewhat small space that they live in. Overall, if you don't mind some minor soldering, the process isn't bad at all. The effect of the swap is completely transformative, the two speakers are miles apart in terms of sound.

Aesthetically, sure, the Revels offer more of a luxury finish and an interesting looking cabinet. The Ascends' design is rather simplistic and they don't draw much attention to themselves. That's fine by me as I don't purchase speakers to look at, but others may of course have different priorities. At the end of the day, if I was offered F228Bes in exchange for my ELXs, I'd keep what I have without hesitation.

 

[mj30250]

If someone wants to offer me another new pair of Walnut Revel F228Be in exchange for my Sierra Towers with RAAL Tweeters I would happily accept.

As you should. The Revels are better than the V1 Sierra towers.

After living with RAAL Tweeters in the Sierra Towers versus Revels Be Tweeter for several years, I much prefer the smoother sound of the Be tweeter. To my ears, cymbals, snare and hi-hat all sound more realistic. While the RAAL is a high quality driver it can have an edge to it that sounds a bit artificial. In addition, the Revel Be Tweeter dispersion is 10x better. You can stand as well as sit with the Revel Be and not hear the highs change dramatically. With the RAAL you need to have ears located at Tweeter height. If you get up, you immediately notice the difference. It's a much more directional design. While the Sierra Towers can offer a nice mid-range punch, they don't offer the fullness of sound and absolute power of the Revel F228Be. It's an entirely different class.

It's also hard to spend $2200, do all the work of installing new drivers/crossovers and soldering and not know what Frankenstein monster you will end up with. I much prefer buying a known sound that I have already auditioned and not depend on my DIY soldering skills and assembly. I would hope a skilled professionals with experience can offer a superior install. They would have tools to test and troubleshoot the final result. You could have defective parts or poorly soldered connections and not even know it. Professional design and assembly within tolerance are valuable.

I directly compared the ELX ribbons to the Revel Bes over the course of several months. You're correct in that the Revels have an immediately noticeable advantage if you are standing up as there is very little treble attenuation. The ribbons' vertical window is much smaller. When seated, however, there was not a single track in which I preferred the high-end of the Revels to the ELXs across multiple genres of music, including rock, metal, jazz, blues, classical, hip-hop, and EDM. I am a hobbyist drummer (mostly jazz and rock) and am obsessed with cymbals - I have over 25 rides alone. I've yet to hear a recorded cymbal reproduced more realistically than through the ELX towers. Stick definition, wash, harmonics, "shimmer" - everything is there in a high-quality track along with an uncanny "live in the room" effect that I've never heard out of another speaker in the house.

As far as the upgrade itself - Frankenstein monster? All of the parts are designed, tested, and QC'd by Ascend. There's very little to mess up with the installation - it's virtually all plug-and-play short of the fairly simple soldering of the speaker wires to the crossover. And if you did botch something, the result should be readily apparent audibly and could be verified by measurements. I know in the past, Dave at Ascend offered to complete the upgrade in-house at no additional charge (less S&H to ship the speakers to Ascend and back) - that may very well remain the case. That seems a no-brainer for anyone daunted by the upgrade process. Alternatively, the V1s could be sold on the used market and the funds deployed towards the purchase of brand new ELXs.

Anyway, this seems to be veering quite a ways off topic now.

 

[Ricardojoa]

While the ribbon has less vertical dispersion up top, it has far more radiation down below 4.5khz where is more important and on the bmr monitor is even better, it doesnt suffer cancelation at crossover point like the revels do. If you listen music while beein active in the room, you will have variation of sound anyway. I thought you should already known this if you had done your inroom measurements.

 

[mj30250]

It depends how you like to enjoy and listen to music? Personally, I prefer a speaker that sounds great when I'm standing or moving about the room.
If you like to do any of the following I wouldn't recommend the RAAL Tweeter:
1. Exercise with music
2. Play pool
3. Dance
4. Have guests over who mingle while standing
5. Play along with instruments while standing with your stereo
6. Any activity that doesn't keep you seated in the RAAL sweet spot

Having a speaker that sounds great standing or seated is so much more flexible than one with a RAAL Tweeter that demands the listener be seated for a decent sound.

Of course as with virtually anything in audio, use-case is important in the decision making process, as this helps to determine the compromises that you are more/less okay with living with (and there are always compromises). The ELX setup is used primarily for critical music listening, reading, and for watching movies. It's not in a location that would be used for activities that involve standing for any great length of time. I have a dome tweeter system upstairs in the living room as that is in an area where I and others are frequently mobile. The improved vertical dispersion does help here. But in (almost) any case, if you are listening to a stereo system and move out of the center sweet spot, imaging and soundstage will collapse, so your experience is already quite compromised. If we are distracted with other activities such as exercising, playing pool, mingling with guests, etc, we tend to not care too much.

 

[Everett T]

It depends how you like to enjoy and listen to music? Personally, I prefer a speaker that sounds great when I'm standing or moving about the room.
If you like to do any of the following I wouldn't recommend the RAAL Tweeter:
1. Exercise with music
2. Play pool
3. Dance
4. Have guests over who mingle while standing
5. Play along with instruments while standing with your stereo
6. Any activity that doesn't keep you seated in the RAAL sweet spot

Having a speaker that sounds great standing or seated is so much more flexible than one with a RAAL Tweeter that demands the listener be seated for a decent sound.

FWIW I have both RAAL common tweeters, 60 and 70, and the Satori BE and I go back and forth on my preference. All 3 are Dennis Murphy designs with the BMRs standmounts only having one tweeter component. They all sound great to me and I wouldn't easily have a favorite.

 

[chych7]

IMO you really have to treat the sidewall first reflection points with RAAL/BMR speakers. Looking at dispersion plots, you're getting 3-6 dB more upper frequency (>2 kHz) sound coming from sidewall early reflections from a RAAL/BMR than something like a Revel tweeter with a waveguide. The impact on clarity and imaging is very obvious, one can put up/take down sidewall panels and it's very obvious how much sidewall reflections degrade the sound quality.

 

[Everett T]

IMO you really have to treat the sidewall first reflection points with RAAL/BMR speakers. Looking at dispersion plots, you're getting 3-6 dB more upper frequency (>2 kHz) sound coming from sidewall early reflections from a RAAL/BMR than something like a Revel tweeter with a waveguide. The impact on clarity and imaging is very obvious, one can put up/take down sidewall panels and it's very obvious how much sidewall reflections degrade the sound quality.

Placement, tweeter diffraction treatments, or DSP are options that easily deal with first reflections. I don't have any issues as placement solves most issues for me. Dennis has, a long with Paul Kittinger, designed many great speakers that have been easy for me to deal with in room. YMMV

 

[chych7]

Placement, tweeter diffraction treatments, or DSP are options that easily deal with first reflections. I don't have any issues as placement solves most issues for me. Dennis has, a long with Paul Kittinger, designed many great speakers that have been easy for me to deal with in room. YMMV

Please explain more how these would work.

Placement: sure you can change toe-in/toe-out to change how the sidewalls interact, but you're still getting sidewall interaction, either the left or right wall

Tweeter diffraction treatments: you mean like blinders? Doesn't seem like a good idea. Waveguide would help, which Revel implements.

DSP: how? DSP doesn't change dispersion width. Maybe some exotic active cancellation could do it...

Only "easy" way to deal with early reflections, AFAIK, is to (1) put up absorption panels or (2) just remove the wall entirely and go free field (or have the wall so far away that the arrival time is well after direct sound, so your perception doesn't combine them as one, which smears the sound).

 

[Everett T]

Please explain more how these would work.

Placement: sure you can change toe-in/toe-out to change how the sidewalls interact, but you're still getting sidewall interaction, either the left or right wall

Tweeter diffraction treatments: you mean like blinders? Doesn't seem like a good idea. Waveguide would help, which Revel implements.

DSP: how? DSP doesn't change dispersion width. Maybe some exotic active cancellation could do it...

Only "easy" way to deal with early reflections, AFAIK, is to (1) put up absorption panels or (2) just remove the wall entirely and go free field (or have the wall so far away that the arrival time is well after direct sound, so your perception doesn't combine them as one, which smears the sound).

You have the concepts down of what I was referring to and DSP can reduce the intensity. My rooms are unique to me so it varies. My Be tweeters are in a very large room but the distance to the side walls is fairly similar to my other setups and I don't have first reflection issues. I should measure them to see what actual affects are occuring, I just haven't felt a need as the sound is good.

 

[chych7]

You have the concepts down of what I was referring to and DSP can reduce the intensity. My rooms are unique to me so it varies. My Be tweeters are in a very large room but the distance to the side walls is fairly similar to my other setups and I don't have first reflection issues. I should measure them to see what actual affects are occuring, I just haven't felt a need as the sound is good.

How do you know you don't have first reflection issues? Have you looked at the impulse response with REW to check the impact of reflected sound? What do your clarity C50 measurements look like? Sound may be good now, but you may have an easy low cost opportunity to make it even better.

 

[alexis]

Greetings from a new customer in Finland. The first Philharmonic Audio Speaker Family picture:

We are so inspired that we should prepare Philharmonic Audio speaker family picture.

 

[groovybassist]

Greetings from a new customer in Finland. The first Philharmonic Audio Speaker Family picture:
View attachment 436354
We are so inspired that we should prepare Philharmonic Audio speaker family picture.

Wow - congratulations!