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sweetchaos

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Available AVRs:
Denon AVR-X4700H $1,700
Denon AVR-X3700H $1,350
Denon AVR-X2700H $950
Marantz SR6015 $1,500
Marantz SR5015 $1,120
Marantz NR1711 $980
Yamaha RX-V6A $675
Yamaha RX-V4A $540

The model I recommend if you can afford it, is the Denon X3500H or X3600H or X3700H, which have Audyssey MultEQ XT32. This is state of the art digital room correction, which is way better than Audyssey MultEQ XT, that all lower models have (models like X1500H, X1600H, X2500H, X2600H, X2700H, etc). All models above this (ex. X4400H, X4500H, X4700H and so on) have this too, but cost higher, with the benefit of more channel processing.

Amir reviewed the following Denon:
X3500H
X3600H
X3700H
X4700H
As you can see, they're all recommended.
So any of these will suit your needs. Although, seeing how you're looking for 8K support...only the latest models would be needed.
 

sweetchaos

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Questions
1. Optimal Speaker Configuration?
2. Would I benefit from Surround Sound? 5.1 setup? Or 3.1 is fine?
3. Would I benefit from Back surround sound? 7.1 setup? Or 5.1 is fine?
4. Would I benefit from atmos ceiling speakers? 9.1 Setup (1 in each corner of room x4 total) or 7.1 is fine?
5. Best bang for the buck AVR to meet my needs?
6. Best bang for the buck bookshelf speakers for this bedroom?
7. Best bang for the buck subwoofer for this bedroom?
8. If needed best bang for the buck surround sound speakers?
9. If needed best bang for the buck (back) surround sound speakers?
10. If needed best bang for the buck Atmos ceiling speakers?
1. That's dependent on you and your decor, if you can find the space...get a good 5.1 setup.
2. I have 5.1 surround setup, and yes, it adds to the overall 'surround effects', instead of just 3.1 setup.
3. I would pick 5.1 surround setup and 4 atmos, instead of the added rear channels (example the traditional 7.1 or 9.1 setup), since more and more movies are mastered with Atmos effects, for a more immersive experience, rather than rear channels.
4. Yes, most movies today support Dolby Atmos, so I would get 4 Atmos speakers, instead of 2 Atmos, since you'll get that panning effect (from front atmos to back atmos).
5. Denon. Good reviews by Amir, plus state of the art digital room correction (DRC), Audyssey MultEQ XT32.
6. lots, just depends on the budget.
7. lots, see my 'subwoofer comparison' spreadsheet.
8. same criteria as for bookshelves...must not be a broken design. Here, you can save a bit of money, since surround speakers don't play as loud as the front LCR, so you can get a cheaper version of the bookshelves.
9. Most in-ceiling or in-wall speakers are really bad. With the exception of Revel...haha. Perhaps look at Kef in-ceiling if you can. If you don't want to ceiling mount, perhaps something "outdoor" speakers could work as well. Here's RSL Outsider II and Revel M55XC.
 
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lucas122478

lucas122478

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Overall, none of the subs you mentioned stand out...I would try to get good measuring subs, like the SVS. As you can easily tell by the spreadsheet, SVS subs are worth the money.


Try to get the biggest output (for the lowest frequency) for the money that you can.

Keep in mind, JBL 4645c is PASSIVE, so you'll need to purchase an external amplifier as well. My recommendation is to choose active subs (with amplifier built in), since it will work immediately out of the box.

My pick would be SVS.

Okay, then. Let's just close it out with the SVS PB-1000 for $900. The seller even will honor the manufacturer warranty (Something that's hard to get here if the market for the product isn't big.) Tentative Build so far:

AVR - Denon AVR-X3700H
SUB - SVS PB1000 PRO
SUB2 - No Need?
LEFT - JBL Stage A130 (tentative to availability) or POLK Audio Signature Series S15 (Amir Recommended)
RIGHT - JBL Stage A130 (tentative to availability) or POLK Audio Signature Series S15 (Amir Recommended)
CENTER - POLK Audio Signature Series S30 or POLK Audio Signature Series S35 ???
S.LEFT - JBL Stage A130 (tentative to availability) or POLK Audio Signature Series S15 (Amir Recommended)
S.RIGHT - JBL Stage A130 (tentative to availability) or POLK Audio Signature Series S15 (Amir Recommended)
B.LEFT - JBL Stage A130 (tentative to availability) or POLK Audio Signature Series S15 (Amir Recommended) - NULL (No need)
B.RIGHT - JBL Stage A130 (tentative to availability) or POLK Audio Signature Series S15 (Amir Recommended) - NULL (No need)
A.TOP1 - ???
A.TOP2 - ???
A.TOP3 - ???
A.TOP4 - ???
Connections - ????

For POLK, Atmos R800 only thing listed as available, and at $530 a pair that seems a bit too high when compared to the S15's and A130s. I also need info on "how" I connect all of this? As, I understand there's groups who scream regular copper wire works just fine (stranded? or solid?), and those who declare the Monster Mega Ultra Powerman2000 Funky Fresh LED stroke effect ICE Cream Series are better?
 

sweetchaos

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That leaves me literally with only POLK as a contender. There are four different line-ups for POLK. The line-ups are the R-series, S-series, (i) Series, and T-series. I can not afford the S-series right now, so out of the remaining (3), which would you suggest?

Finally, what size subwoofer from POLK should I look into for my 12x13 room? The options are 12", 10", and 8".
Polk T15:
1621815332713.png

Really bad design. Avoid this series.

Polk S15:
1621815364900.png

-3dB (resp. -6db) point v.s. reference is at 67.0Hz (resp. 59.0Hz).
Preference Score is 4.3 and would be 6.9 with a perfect subwoofer.
Amir's review. Recommended.

JBL Stage A130:
1621815429848.png

-3dB (resp. -6db) point v.s. reference is at 60.0Hz (resp. 54.0Hz).
Preference Score is 5.1 and would be 7.5 with a perfect subwoofer.
Amir's review. Highly Recommended.

Can you try both JBL A130 and Polk S15? They're both decent speakers, IMO.
 

sweetchaos

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Regarding speaker wire:
Gene from Audioholics said:
If you’re choosing between two cable gauges, I usually recommend going for the lower one (all other things being equal) to ensure your cables won’t be the chink in your audio chain for pursuing audiophile nirvana.

Try to get 10awg. If that's not available, go for 12awg. I run 12awg, generic cable from monoprice.com (link) and it's working without issues.
I terminated my own connectors, nothing fancy.
Just avoid snake oil cables and you'll be fine.
 
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lucas122478

lucas122478

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Polk T15:
View attachment 131602
Really bad design. Avoid this series.

Polk S15:
View attachment 131603
-3dB (resp. -6db) point v.s. reference is at 67.0Hz (resp. 59.0Hz).
Preference Score is 4.3 and would be 6.9 with a perfect subwoofer.
Amir's review. Recommended.

JBL Stage A130:
View attachment 131604
-3dB (resp. -6db) point v.s. reference is at 60.0Hz (resp. 54.0Hz).
Preference Score is 5.1 and would be 7.5 with a perfect subwoofer.
Amir's review. Highly Recommended.

Can you try both JBL A130 and Polk S15? They're both decent speakers, IMO.

S15's I can get. JBL A130's I'm waiting for a response from JBL themselves. They list the a130s on the local .PH site, but none of their vendors have it on their website.
 

sweetchaos

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In terms of center speaker, most 2-way center speakers are horribly designed.

Watch Erin's video on the review of the JBL HDI-4500 to understand the problems that most center speakers have.

Can you find out if you can get Infinity speakers?
Here's my recommendation for a center speaker, which is a 3-way speaker:
Infinity RC263. Amir's review.

Knowing what I know now, I want to recommend you get an additional Polk S15 or JBL Stage A130 just for the center (instead of the POLK Audio Signature Series S30 or POLK Audio Signature Series S35), just to avoid issues with 2-way center speakers.
That's easier said than done, since they're sold in pairs...haha.
 
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lucas122478

lucas122478

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Regarding speaker wire:
Gene from Audioholics said:


Try to get 10awg. If that's not available, go for 12awg. I run 12awg, generic cable from monoprice.com (link) and it's working without issues.
I terminated my own connectors, nothing fancy.
Just avoid snake oil cables and you'll be fine.

Royu is a popular local brand. I can get it for around 0.75 per meter.

Product Name: Royu THHN/THWN Stranded 10 AWG/ 5.5mm² Wire
 
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lucas122478

lucas122478

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In terms of center speaker, most 2-way center speakers are horribly designed.

Watch Erin's video on the review of the JBL HDI-4500 to understand the problems that most center speakers have.

Can you find out if you can get Infinity speakers?
Here's my recommendation for a center speaker, which is a 3-way speaker:
Infinity RC263. Amir's review.

Knowing what I know now, I want to recommend you get an additional Polk S15 or JBL Stage A130 just for the center (instead of the POLK Audio Signature Series S30 or POLK Audio Signature Series S35), just to avoid issues with 2-way center speakers.
That's easier said than done, since they're sold in pairs...haha.

IF Infinity means Infinity by Karmen, there are a few dealers here, but they sell only automobile speakers. Possibly can special order through them but I doubt it. Harmon is also in the malls but mainly geared towards cellphones, so might have better luck with them.
 
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lucas122478

lucas122478

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In terms of center speaker, most 2-way center speakers are horribly designed.

Watch Erin's video on the review of the JBL HDI-4500 to understand the problems that most center speakers have.

Can you find out if you can get Infinity speakers?
Here's my recommendation for a center speaker, which is a 3-way speaker:
Infinity RC263. Amir's review.

Knowing what I know now, I want to recommend you get an additional Polk S15 or JBL Stage A130 just for the center (instead of the POLK Audio Signature Series S30 or POLK Audio Signature Series S35), just to avoid issues with 2-way center speakers.
That's easier said than done, since they're sold in pairs...haha.

Btw, there are also POLK R300, R350, and R400 center speakers available. If I need to pay a "bit" more for a center speaker, I reckon that would be fine.
 
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lucas122478

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Local PH Article claims that this (version) is full-range (which google claims is 3-way). Polk Audio Signature S35 Center Channel / Multi-purpose home theater speaker. ($370)

They also recommend this one which they claim is full-range too. Definitive Technology CS-9040 Center Channel Speaker ($660)
 
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lucas122478

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Btw, there are also POLK R300, R350, and R400 center speakers available. If I need to pay a "bit" more for a center speaker, I reckon that would be fine.

...And it just gets more confusing... Below is a copy of the description from BHphotovideo site.

"Enjoy versatile placement and setup options with the washed black walnut Polk Audio Signature Series S35 Two-Way LCR Speaker. It features a 1" Terylene dome tweeter and six 3" mid/woofer drivers and accepts 20 to 150W of power from your amplifier"

The description states it's two-way but it also states it's 3-way since it says 1" tweeter, and six 3" mids / woofer drivers. Correct me if I am wrong but in order for it to be a three-way, it needs a tweeter, a mid-range and a woofer? Also other articles claim the R35 is one of the best center speakers available in 2021.

Update: Cnet states that this one is 3-way - Polk Audio CSi A4 (black) | CSI A4-Black. It's available here too and actually one of the cheapest at $210
 
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raistlin65

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Any form of manual labor is dirt cheap $10 - $15 per day (for 8 hours work) - But, I could probably do this myself If it's not too complicated. I'm no stranger to minor carpentry work. My last job stateside was basically the assistant area manager for Woodgrain, Inc. in the greater ATL area. One of the reasons I bailed stateside because it was during the housing crisis back in '08. I was the highest-paid rep in the country due to my experience, attention to detail, and single-handedly saving the company from losing the 950M contract with Home Depot when the President was looking to roll some heads back in '07. My attention to detail made it a love-hate relationship. I still managed to increase sales in almost every Home Depot I touched throughout Metro ATL from anywhere between $500K - $2.5M per month during the housing crisis. But, in order to do that, I probably tossed anywhere between $50K - $200K of damaged moulding into the compactor every week (from each store).

I figured I was at the top of the list to get laid off and I had not taken vacation time in 2 years, so I had 4 weeks of time accrued. The VP had already signed off on 2 weeks with an option to use the remaining 2 weeks if I chose to. I had already been to the PI before and had actually got married in '06 (was in the process of immigrating her), so I flew back on my initial 2-week leave, and a few days before it was up I emailed in to use the remaining 2 weeks. Of course, as I thought, the ***holes tried to deny my 2-weeks, I argued it had already been approved, and the next email I received was that I was laid off - lol. So, not knowing the certainty of finding another job stateside soon and with a much bigger overhead to earn versus here, I decided to stay.

Before my promotion to Greater ATL, I was on the set team. We serviced almost all the Home Depots from New Mexico - the Virgin Lands and as far north as Virginia. So chances are if you've ever bought moulding from Home Depot, I was one of the guys who built the Gravity feeder boxes for the door/window trim packs, Peg boxes, backers for the moulding, etc.

Eh, oops, but back on track. Yeah, I could probably do this myself, but I have found a dealer that is selling the PB-1000 Pro for $900. That's $300 over the price stateside but you got to factor in shipping costs($20 freight), insurance($20?), 12% taxes ($77), 10% custom duties($72), the vendors time and profits(+20% @ $158) = $947 and he's selling it for $900. So unless the driver + amp is significantly cheaper than $600, I'm not sure it would be worthwhile?

I don't know. You'll have to look into DIY subs. See what components you need, and how much it would cost to get them.

But here in the US, DIY is a better price/performance option.
 

sweetchaos

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Stop listening to marketing talk, lol.

1. Here's Infinity RC253:
1621819317651.png

As you can see, it's a 3-way.

The on-axis looks really good:
1621819353598.png

It's Horizontal directivity is okay:
1621819452484.png

Looking at the yellow line, at +- 30 degree off-axis, it's only down by about 3db from the on-axis sound, which means you can sit +-30 deg off-axis from the center and still have a good experience with hearing the center speaker clearly.

2. Comparing to a 2-way (Mid-Tweeter-Mid) center speaker, like the JBL HDI-4500:
1621819837098.png

1621819590822.png

And as mentioned in Erin's video, the best position would be no more than +-10 degrees (red line) off-axis horizontally.
That's really bad. So if you have friends over, and you're in the center spot, they're REALLY not going to have a good time listening to that center channel.
At +-20 degree (orange line) off-axis, it's even worse... SPL drops by like 15db (at around 1.6khz).

3. Now, compare that a using a bookshelf speaker, like Polk S15, for a center:
1621819986960.png

Which shows that you can go as much as +-50 deg (light blue line) off-axis horizontally, before losing more than 3db below on-axis....ignoring the graph above 10khz (since it don't matter for speech anyway).

I hope that clarifies the problem with center channel speakers.
 
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lucas122478

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Stop listening to marketing talk, lol.

1. Here's Infinity RC253:
View attachment 131623
As you can see, it's a 3-way.

The on-axis looks really good:
View attachment 131624
It's Horizontal directivity is okay:
View attachment 131625
Looking at the yellow line, at +- 30 degree off-axis, it's only down by about 3db from the on-axis sound, which means you can sit +-30 deg off-axis from the center and still have a good experience with hearing the center speaker clearly.

2. Comparing to a 2-way (Mid-Tweeter-Mid) center speaker, like the JBL HDI-4500:
View attachment 131628
View attachment 131627
And as mentioned in Erin's video, the best position would be no more than +-10 degrees (red line) off-axis horizontally.
That's really bad. So if you have friends over, and you're in the center spot, they're REALLY not going to have a good time listening to that center channel.
At +-20 degree (orange line) off-axis, it's even worse... SPL drops by like 15db (at around 1.6khz).

3. Now, compare that a using a bookshelf speaker, like Polk S15, for a center:
View attachment 131629
Which shows that you can go as much as +-50 deg (light blue line) off-axis horizontally, before losing more than 3db below on-axis....ignoring the graph above 10khz (since it don't matter for speech anyway).

I hope that clarifies the problem with center channel speakers.

Lol, See what I mean with all the misinformation on the web?

I found a dealer that "had" infinity series 7 years ago. I messaged him to see if can get it and waiting on response. By chance, he also has the PB-1000 for $780 ($120 cheaper than other guy).


1621820798446.png



1621821049620.png
 

richard12511

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SweetChaos, thank you so much for the data drop. However, I am not entirely sure what I am even looking at. Given the time, I will be able to look up all of this audiophile terminology and be able to decode its wizardry.

Out of all of the Yays, Nays, and Mays, I will go under the assumption that these being the most expensive bookshelf speakers should be some of the best in the manufacturer's lineup. The speakers that did not make the cut I suspect should speak volumes about the remainder of their products. Thus, this shrinks the list dramatically.

As for the remaining speakers, let's eliminate Presonus Eris, Edifier, and ELAC Debut as there is probably no way I am ready to start tinkering with speakers nor would I understand what I am doing in the process.

That brings the speaker list down to just four companies.

Current Recommendations for Bookshelf Speakers

1. Wharfedale
2. Polk
3. PSB
4. Definitive technology


* After I searched for more PSB products I found them to be virtually non-existent so I would like to eliminate it from the list.
* After I priced Definitive Technology I concluded it was out of my budget so I would like to eliminate it from the list.
* When it came to Wharfedale, I could only find one vendor. The market being so small for that company, I struck it from the list.

That leaves me literally with only POLK as a contender. There are four different line-ups for POLK. The line-ups are the R-series, S-series, (i) Series, and T-series. I can not afford the S-series right now, so out of the remaining (3), which would you suggest?

Finally, what size subwoofer from POLK should I look into for my 12x13 room? The options are 12", 10", and 8".

Last but not least, is an AVR that is 8K compatible. Selection once again is fairly slim. I am limited to Denon, Marantz, and a couple of Yamaha models. Below I have included a list of these AVRs and their costs. Which one would you guys pick and of the 8 listed which one would be the best bang for the buck?

Available AVRs:
Denon AVR-X4700H $1,700
Denon AVR-X3700H $1,350
Denon AVR-X2700H $950
Marantz SR6015 $1,500
Marantz SR5015 $1,120
Marantz NR1711 $980
Yamaha RX-V6A $675
Yamaha RX-V4A $540

Finally, I still am looking forward to if anyone can answer me on what size set-up to have in this small room and if I should even bother with Atmos speakers?

Once again, thank you for your thorough response SweetChaos.

For R series, the R200 measures fantastic. Reviewed here.

No need to stick to Polk subwoofers. In fact, I would look elsewhere if at all possible I would look at more dedicated subwoofer companies first(if they are available where you are), as they'll sound much better for the same price. Do you have access to any of HSU, Rythmik, SVS, Arendal, or PSA?
 

richard12511

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lucas122478

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I love the Philippine Islands, all 7100 of them at low tide. Great diving. Lovely hotels, everyone working there is related.

My girlfriend, (in my avatar) her family has a lot of beachfront land in Aklan, near Boracay. Once I get my starlink package (LEO satellite internet) sometime in 2022, we're seriously considering moving down there and building a house.
 
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lucas122478

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For R series, the R200 measures fantastic. Reviewed here.

No need to stick to Polk subwoofers. In fact, I would look elsewhere if at all possible I would look at more dedicated subwoofer companies first(if they are available where you are), as they'll sound much better for the same price. Do you have access to any of HSU, Rythmik, SVS, Arendal, or PSA?

Those are almost 3x the price of the S15's. I'd love to be able to spend that much now but it's not in the cards. Once, I do update 2.0 and move whatever current setup I end up getting into the den for the kids then I can relook at something like these hopefully. This is all ballooning out more than I had hoped for in costs, but I do spend probably $1K a month just on GI Joes and 3rd party transformers so I can offset costs by halting reliving my 80s childhood over again for the next 6 months lol.
 
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