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New Member, Audio Newbie, No Idea What I'm Doing

lucas122478

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Intro Rant
Hi guys, I'm new to the forums and I am completely ignorant to all of this. Searching the web for definitive and honest information is getting harder and harder as there is so many bull**** articles put up simply to generate AdSense revenue that was written by some random guy living in a cave in eastern Pakistan that was paid $5 to write the article. With the case in AVRs and speakers, it's literally the same articles written and then copied and re-written by a hundred different people and none really go into "why". You've got articles claiming AVR and home theater setups are dead and soundbars are all you need. Then you've got articles claiming all soundbars are garbage. When you look up the specs of AVRs there literally a hundred different specs and the average "Joe" like me doesn't have a clue what most of it means. Nor do the majority of reviews even go into explaining (Yes, I know because the people writing them don't have a clue either. so it's useless reading these top blah blahs.)

Why I am Here
I figure this would be one of the best places to get definitive answers for AVRs, speakers, and audio; considering I am sure a good majority of the members here have been audiophiles for decades.

A little About me
I've never owned an AVR even though I've window shopped them for a good 20 years. I used to live near Atlanta, Georgia in the mid-2000s and I'd go to the local Fry's and hang out listening to the systems there. I was close to purchasing a setup but then I made a huge jump and decided to throw everything away and move to the Philippines (With no savings). Well, that didn't work out so well. The good news is I eventually adapted and I'm looking to get a "decent" setup going over the next year (or two depending on how much it costs).

As I'm sure you are all aware of how scarce PS5's are. Well, over here, it's 100x worse. I managed to score a unit this past Friday. At the same time, local retailers marked the LG OLED CX series MSRP price down 50% to make room for the 2021 models. I couldn't resist and I bought the "55 LG OLED CX. I also had to buy all the necessary extras I would need such as an extra PS5 controller, a few games, chargers, cables, surge protector, and a few other odds and ends. This wiped me out for the next couple of months. For a temporary solution to sound, I bought a Samsung Hw-A450 soundbar. Yes, I know soundbars are considered blasphemy to audiophiles. I apologize in advance If I offend anyone for purchasing this. I needed a cheap, temp solution for now and RTINGs gave an okay review on this soundbar.

I also need to point out that buying electronics over here is much different than in the states. Pretty much everything over here sells at MSRP, sure stuff goes on sale sometimes but when it does go on sale once in a blue moon. Electronics, depending on the type, can range on average of being anywhere between 20 - 50% higher over than stateside. For example, as I said earlier I scored the LG 55" OLED CX for 1/2 off. With shipping, taxes, and conversion from USD to PHP that still came out to $1600 USD which is more than the $1200 USD that it appears to be selling for currently in the states.

Okay, now that cost differences are out of the way, comes the space I have to work with. This will all be going into my bedroom. The room is not very big and comes out at around 12'x13' or so. It's also already pretty crowded. I've got my computer desk and displays (figures, statues, etc) in the SW corner. My dog's bed, pads, and junk is in the SE corner. The bed is in the middle of the room facing against the E/W wall with just enough space to walk around it from the end. That leaves the NW, N, and NE corners which currently the NW and NE corners each have their own large shelf stuffed full of more collectibles. In the north area (the only available space) is where the window is for the room which measures out at around 4' x 4'. I have around 6' width and 4' length to work with and I've already moved an old 48" ET center into the room to put the TV on. I've also put down a rug (read this helps with bass?) that covers almost the entirety of the northern end of the room but doesn't go under the bed or the other side of the room.

Okay, that WAS more than a Little
Okay, sorry. I type fast, and I am very detailed and I know I probably gave way too many details but I thought maybe if you guys can visualize the setup it would help determine the best setup to use. If you're still with me now we can get to the meat of the topic. Like I said in the beginning, I have no clue what I am looking for or what I need. I could make it a bit simpler and just state the inner animal in me wants all the bells and whistles but the fiscal part of me is a cheap bastard and doesn't want to burn through thousands of dollars on something that I won't benefit from. So I'll try and give at least what I "think" I should want.

World Record Holder for Procrastination
As you are already aware, I've procrastinated for damn near two decades. Chances are I will procrastinate another decade at least if I want to upgrade again. So future-proofing probably should be at the top of the list. I like s*** being connected. So next would be lots of HDMI, PS5, Xbox, Nintendo, PC, HTPC, etc. Then, speaker setup. The room as explained above is not that big. Would I benefit from a 9.1 atmos setup? Or is it pointless in such a small room? 7.1? 5.1? Or just 3.1 for such a small area? When I'm gaming on the PS5 / watching movies, it will be on my bed which will be around 3 1/2 - 4' away.

Bulletpoints - Because everyone likes that and I could have probably summed all this up with bulletpoints instead of writing a novel....
1. Future-proof (8K)
2. Best setup for PS5 / XBOX Series X
3. Crisp, clear sound
4. Bass : Enough to make my balls vibrate
5. Setup for gaming, movies and music.
6. Reminder 3.5' / 4' viewing distance - 12' x 13' room 9.5' walls to ceiling.

Questions
1. Optimal Speaker Configuration?
2. Would I benefit from Surround Sound? 5.1 setup? Or 3.1 is fine?
3. Would I benefit from Back surround sound? 7.1 setup? Or 5.1 is fine?
4. Would I benefit from atmos ceiling speakers? 9.1 Setup (1 in each corner of room x4 total) or 7.1 is fine?
5. Best bang for the buck AVR to meet my needs?
6. Best bang for the buck bookshelf speakers for this bedroom?
7. Best bang for the buck subwoofer for this bedroom?
8. If needed best bang for the buck surround sound speakers?
9. If needed best bang for the buck (back) surround sound speakers?
10. If needed best bang for the buck Atmos ceiling speakers?

Okay, If you read this, you're my hero. Once again, I apologize for being so long-winded. I'm looking forward to hearing back your recommendations and putting me on the right road. If you have recommendations, a few of each type would be helpful. Very likely possibility what you recommend may not even be available over here. To give you an example I'll list the brands that I could find with a quick search and the prices of the most expensive offerings from those manufacturers. Thanks guys!

Brands - Model - Prices
Definitive Technology - Demand Series D11 Bookshelf Speakers - $1,400
Klipsch - Reference Premiere RP-502S - $1,100
Bowers & Wilkins - 606 S2 Anniversary Edition BS speakers - $800
Polk - Audio Reserve R200 BS speakers - $750
Canton - GLE 436 BS speakers - $750
Edifier - A80 (Airpulse) BS speakers - $700
Wharfdale - EVO 4.2 BS speakers - $650
Bose - Virtually Invisible 891 In-wall Speakers - $600
Presonus Eris - E5XT High-Definition Active Studio Monitor (pair) - $500
PSB - Imagine XB BS Speakers - $400
ELAC Debut - 2.0 B6.2 BS speakers - $400
Monitor Audio bronze BS speakers - $350
Diamond - 11.1 BS Speakers - $325
Behringer Eurolive B210 Speaker - $250
Kevler 15" passive speaker EON-15 $200
Tannoy - Revolution DC4 4" Dual Concentric HIFI BS speakers - $200
 

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direstraitsfan98

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Wow! I didn’t know people in caves in Pakistan wrote dishonest articles for Adsense revenue. Or that people in caves, or Pakistanis would be more predispositioned to do that. But opposed to what? Opposed to people in caves in Pakistan writing honest articles for no Adsense? I sense some major prejudice for all cave dwelling folk from you.
 

Jimbob54

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Wow! I didn’t know people in caves in Pakistan wrote dishonest articles for Adsense revenue. Or that people in caves, or Pakistanis would be more predispositioned to do that. But opposed to what? Opposed to people in caves in Pakistan writing honest articles for no Adsense? I sense some major prejudice for all cave dwelling folk from you.

An audiophile troglophobe.
 

sweetchaos

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Welcome. I'll try to knock off a few bad apples...so to speak.

Definitive Technology - Demand Series D11 Bookshelf Speakers - $1,400:
1621753879343.png

-3dB (resp. -6db) point v.s. reference is at 59.0Hz (resp. 51.0Hz).
Preference Score is 4.6 and would be 6.9 with a perfect subwoofer.
Amir rating? Liked and recommended. Source


Klipsch - Reference Premiere RP-502S - $1,100:
1621753983746.png

Amir's rating? Not recommended. Source
My recommendation? With the exception of Klipsch The Fives...avoid Klipsch in general!

Bowers & Wilkins - 606 S2 Anniversary Edition BS speakers - $800:
1621754048904.png

-3dB (resp. -6db) point v.s. reference is at 64.0Hz (resp. 48.0Hz).
Preference Score is 3.2 and would be 5.3 with a perfect subwoofer.
Amir's rating? Headless. Avoid. Source

Polk - Audio Reserve R200 BS speakers - $750:
1621754109462.png

-3dB (resp. -6db) point v.s. reference is at 48.0Hz (resp. 42.0Hz).
Preference Score is 6.3 and would be 8.3 with a perfect subwoofer.
Spinorama by Napilopez. Recommended. Source

Canton - GLE 436 BS speakers - $750:
Unknown. No full spinorama available for Canton speakers, to judge their performance.

Edifier - A80 (Airpulse) BS speakers - $700:
1st Edifier:
1621754278080.png

-3dB (resp. -6db) point v.s. reference is at 60.0Hz (resp. 56.0Hz).
Preference Score is 1.9 and would be 4.4 with a perfect subwoofer.
Amir's review? Recommended. Source
My recommendation? Don't use without EQ.

2nd Edifier:

1621754203212.png

Review by Archimago. Source
My recommendation: Sound Power and Early Reflections seem to follow the On-axis, so it should be fixable with equalization. Maybe.

You can extrapolate performance from these 2 Edifiers for the Edifier A80 that you're looking at.

Wharfdale - EVO 4.2 BS speakers - $650:
1621754397529.png

-3dB (resp. -6db) point v.s. reference is at 113.0Hz (resp. 82.0Hz).
Preference Score is 3.7 and would be 6.9 with a perfect subwoofer.
Amir's review? HIGHLY Recommended. Source
Although...keep it mind, it's bass shy.

Bose - Virtually Invisible 891 In-wall Speakers - $600:
Really? :oops:
No Bose please!

Presonus Eris - E5XT High-Definition Active Studio Monitor (pair) - $500:
1621754525736.png

Reviewed by Audioholics. Source
My thoughts: Looks okay. Small issues fixable with Equalization.

PSB - Imagine XB BS Speakers - $400:
No full spinorama is available.
I have these, and I like them, but I'm biased...so...:p


ELAC Debut - 2.0 B6.2 BS speakers - $400:
1621754619194.png

-3dB (resp. -6db) point v.s. reference is at 60.0Hz (resp. 47.0Hz).
Preference Score is 5.0 and would be 7.2 with a perfect subwoofer.
Amir's review? Questionable performer. Source


Monitor Audio bronze BS speakers - $350:
No spinorama available.


Wharfedale Diamond - 11.1 BS Speakers - $325:
See previous Wharfedale spinorama I showed.


Behringer Eurolive B210 Speaker - $250:
That's a PA speaker, and they'll have their own issues. They usually sacrifice on-axis performance for loudness. We haven't seen any PA speakers tested yet, so it's hard to say. But I would avoid PA speakers until we test some.


Kevler 15" passive speaker EON-15 $200:
See my notes on the Behringer.


Tannoy - Revolution DC4 4" Dual Concentric HIFI BS speakers - $200:
No spinorama available.


That took a bit to gather...o_O
 
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lucas122478

lucas122478

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Welcome. I'll try to knock off a few bad apples...so to speak.
...............................
That took a bit to gather...o_O

SweetChaos, thank you so much for the data drop. However, I am not entirely sure what I am even looking at. Given the time, I will be able to look up all of this audiophile terminology and be able to decode its wizardry.

Out of all of the Yays, Nays, and Mays, I will go under the assumption that these being the most expensive bookshelf speakers should be some of the best in the manufacturer's lineup. The speakers that did not make the cut I suspect should speak volumes about the remainder of their products. Thus, this shrinks the list dramatically.

As for the remaining speakers, let's eliminate Presonus Eris, Edifier, and ELAC Debut as there is probably no way I am ready to start tinkering with speakers nor would I understand what I am doing in the process.

That brings the speaker list down to just four companies.

Current Recommendations for Bookshelf Speakers

1. Wharfedale
2. Polk
3. PSB
4. Definitive technology


* After I searched for more PSB products I found them to be virtually non-existent so I would like to eliminate it from the list.
* After I priced Definitive Technology I concluded it was out of my budget so I would like to eliminate it from the list.
* When it came to Wharfedale, I could only find one vendor. The market being so small for that company, I struck it from the list.

That leaves me literally with only POLK as a contender. There are four different line-ups for POLK. The line-ups are the R-series, S-series, (i) Series, and T-series. I can not afford the S-series right now, so out of the remaining (3), which would you suggest?

Finally, what size subwoofer from POLK should I look into for my 12x13 room? The options are 12", 10", and 8".

Last but not least, is an AVR that is 8K compatible. Selection once again is fairly slim. I am limited to Denon, Marantz, and a couple of Yamaha models. Below I have included a list of these AVRs and their costs. Which one would you guys pick and of the 8 listed which one would be the best bang for the buck?

Available AVRs:
Denon AVR-X4700H $1,700
Denon AVR-X3700H $1,350
Denon AVR-X2700H $950
Marantz SR6015 $1,500
Marantz SR5015 $1,120
Marantz NR1711 $980
Yamaha RX-V6A $675
Yamaha RX-V4A $540

Finally, I still am looking forward to if anyone can answer me on what size set-up to have in this small room and if I should even bother with Atmos speakers?

Once again, thank you for your thorough response SweetChaos.
 

AdamG247

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SweetChaos, thank you so much for the data drop. However, I am not entirely sure what I am even looking at. Given the time, I will be able to look up all of this audiophile terminology and be able to decode its wizardry.

Out of all of the Yays, Nays, and Mays, I will go under the assumption that these being the most expensive bookshelf speakers should be some of the best in the manufacturer's lineup. The speakers that did not make the cut I suspect should speak volumes about the remainder of their products. Thus, this shrinks the list dramatically.

As for the remaining speakers, let's eliminate Presonus Eris, Edifier, and ELAC Debut as there is probably no way I am ready to start tinkering with speakers nor would I understand what I am doing in the process.

That brings the speaker list down to just four companies.

Current Recommendations for Bookshelf Speakers

1. Wharfedale
2. Polk
3. PSB
4. Definitive technology


* After I searched for more PSB products I found them to be virtually non-existent so I would like to eliminate it from the list.
* After I priced Definitive Technology I concluded it was out of my budget so I would like to eliminate it from the list.
* When it came to Wharfedale, I could only find one vendor. The market being so small for that company, I struck it from the list.

That leaves me literally with only POLK as a contender. There are four different line-ups for POLK. The line-ups are the R-series, S-series, (i) Series, and T-series. I can not afford the S-series right now, so out of the remaining (3), which would you suggest?

Finally, what size subwoofer from POLK should I look into for my 12x13 room? The options are 12", 10", and 8".

Last but not least, is an AVR that is 8K compatible. Selection once again is fairly slim. I am limited to Denon, Marantz, and a couple of Yamaha models. Below I have included a list of these AVRs and their costs. Which one would you guys pick and of the 8 listed which one would be the best bang for the buck?

Available AVRs:
Denon AVR-X4700H $1,700
Denon AVR-X3700H $1,350
Denon AVR-X2700H $950
Marantz SR6015 $1,500
Marantz SR5015 $1,120
Marantz NR1711 $980
Yamaha RX-V6A $675
Yamaha RX-V4A $540

Finally, I still am looking forward to if anyone can answer me on what size set-up to have in this small room and if I should even bother with Atmos speakers?

Once again, thank you for your thorough response SweetChaos.
Welcome Aboard @lucas122478.
 

Dj7675

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@lucas122478 , a few random thoughts...
-Might consider something like the JBL Stage A130. Amir reviewed it here. Seems quite a great deal and a great performer and can be purchased directly from Harmon here
-In regards to subwoofers, no need to stick with the same brand. Maybe something like an SVS PB1000 Pro Or SVS 2000 Pro. For subwoofers, I would stick with SVS or Rythmik. If you have the space, go with a ported model
-I don’t do gaming or 8k and know there were some issues there, so it may need a bit of research. But on the audio side, Denon x3700 is a great.
-And yes, gol full surround if possible and Atmos as well if possible.
 
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lucas122478

lucas122478

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@lucas122478 , a few random thoughts...
-Might consider something like the JBL Stage A130. Amir reviewed it here. Seems quite a great deal and a great performer and can be purchased directly from Harmon here
-In regards to subwoofers, no need to stick with the same brand. Maybe something like an SVS PB1000 Pro Or SVS 2000 Pro. For subwoofers, I would stick with SVS or Rythmik. If you have the space, go with a ported model
-I don’t do gaming or 8k and know there were some issues there, so it may need a bit of research. But on the audio side, Denon x3700 is a great.
-And yes, gol full surround if possible and Atmos as well if possible.

I didn't list JBL even though they have multiple locations throughout Metro Manila Malls because they are mainly geared towards smartphone consumers and sell mainly Bluetooth "smart" speakers. However, I dug around on their website and they do list A130's but none of their retailers carry them or they are in stock. I'll email them directly and see if it's possible to get them through special order.

I've been reading through the AVR reviews and based upon the reviews it looks like Denon is whom I am going to with. Is it worth paying the extra $350 for the X4700 or is the X3700 the sweet spot?

As for SVS and Rythmik I can't find anything locally on Rhythmik other than mentions about them being great.

As for SVS I found a website that claims to be a dealer but its ancient. Literally has Flash graphics on it lol. It also looks sketchy. Anyhow, the only ported box subwoofers they list that they claim are SVS are:

Power Sound Audio V1500 P89,000 converts to $1873
Power Sound Audio V3601 P179,000 converts to $3768

Neither of the above are affordable. The cheapest they list is the SB-13 Ultra at $1500 which is still more than I am willing to pay. Shipping from overseas is out of the question because after 12% Vat, 10% duties, shipping fees, 100 lb sub ends up running $600+ to ship here.
 
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lucas122478

lucas122478

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Lucas, welcome.
Well done, the move...including with that problem. ;)

Oh man, I was young, dumb, and full of (keeping it PG). It was the biggest challenge I have ever gone through thus far. I was expecting the PI to not be that much different and I was expecting it to be a cakewalk. That wasn't the case, lol. It took about 4 years worth of cold showers, hot sweaty nights, bloody ankles, rice, ramen noodles, and canned sardines before I could adapt, self-teach myself new skillsets, sell those skillsets and get back to a respectable western income. My only regret was laughing off Bitcoin when I first heard about it back in 2009. Ugh.
 

Dj7675

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Selection is certainly determined by what you can get to your location. I should also add, HSU to you subwoofer list. You can contact Rythmik or HSU for custom shipping quotes to your location.
Edit: Looks like https://www.soundconceptsph.com/products.html is an SVS dealer for the Philippines.
 
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lucas122478

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Selection is certainly determined by what you can get to your location. I should also add, HSU to you subwoofer list. You can contact Rythmik or HSU for custom shipping quotes to your location.
Edit: Looks like https://www.soundconceptsph.com/products.html is an SVS dealer for the Philippines.

Thanks, I emailed them for availability and costs. I also dug around on subs and here's some others available if they are noteworthy?


Harmon Kardon Citation 10" Sub $920
Alto TS318S $830
Velodyne EQ-MAX 15 $760
ELAC Debut Sub3030 12" $710
Alto TS215S $630
PreSonus Temblor T10 $600
PreSonus TEmblor T8 $500
Elac Debut S10EQ $560
Q ACOUSTICS 3070S $530
Q ACOUSTIC 3060S $530
BIC America 12" Down-firing $370
BIC America V1020 10" $325
 

sweetchaos

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Regarding subs…
Purchasing subs that haven’t been tested using the CEA-2010 protocol (which stress tests a sub to find how loud it will play, before distorting), is risky.
Take a look at my “subwoofer comparison” spreadsheet. Link in bio.
 

SimpleTheater

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Wow! I didn’t know people in caves in Pakistan wrote dishonest articles for Adsense revenue. Or that people in caves, or Pakistanis would be more predispositioned to do that. But opposed to what? Opposed to people in caves in Pakistan writing honest articles for no Adsense? I sense some major prejudice for all cave dwelling folk from you.
It’s common knowledge that behind heroin, audiophile articles are the #2 revenue generator for the Taliban.
 
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raistlin65

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I didn't list JBL even though they have multiple locations throughout Metro Manila Malls because they are mainly geared towards smartphone consumers and sell mainly Bluetooth "smart" speakers. However, I dug around on their website and they do list A130's but none of their retailers carry them or they are in stock. I'll email them directly and see if it's possible to get them through special order.

I've been reading through the AVR reviews and based upon the reviews it looks like Denon is whom I am going to with. Is it worth paying the extra $350 for the X4700 or is the X3700 the sweet spot?

As for SVS and Rythmik I can't find anything locally on Rhythmik other than mentions about them being great.

As for SVS I found a website that claims to be a dealer but its ancient. Literally has Flash graphics on it lol. It also looks sketchy. Anyhow, the only ported box subwoofers they list that they claim are SVS are:

Power Sound Audio V1500 P89,000 converts to $1873
Power Sound Audio V3601 P179,000 converts to $3768

Neither of the above are affordable. The cheapest they list is the SB-13 Ultra at $1500 which is still more than I am willing to pay. Shipping from overseas is out of the question because after 12% Vat, 10% duties, shipping fees, 100 lb sub ends up running $600+ to ship here.

How cheap is carpentry work in Manila?

Maybe DIY would be a good choice for you. Have someone build the enclosure and finish it for you. Order the driver and amp from overseas. Should be a lot cheaper to ship.
 

Jim Matthews

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There's a vintage audio, Phillipines, Facebook Group.
Perhaps more choices are available, secondhand.
 
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lucas122478

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How cheap is carpentry work in Manila?

Maybe DIY would be a good choice for you. Have someone build the enclosure and finish it for you. Order the driver and amp from overseas. Should be a lot cheaper to ship.

Any form of manual labor is dirt cheap $10 - $15 per day (for 8 hours work) - But, I could probably do this myself If it's not too complicated. I'm no stranger to minor carpentry work. My last job stateside was basically the assistant area manager for Woodgrain, Inc. in the greater ATL area. One of the reasons I bailed stateside because it was during the housing crisis back in '08. I was the highest-paid rep in the country due to my experience, attention to detail, and single-handedly saving the company from losing the 950M contract with Home Depot when the President was looking to roll some heads back in '07. My attention to detail made it a love-hate relationship. I still managed to increase sales in almost every Home Depot I touched throughout Metro ATL from anywhere between $500K - $2.5M per month during the housing crisis. But, in order to do that, I probably tossed anywhere between $50K - $200K of damaged moulding into the compactor every week (from each store).

I figured I was at the top of the list to get laid off and I had not taken vacation time in 2 years, so I had 4 weeks of time accrued. The VP had already signed off on 2 weeks with an option to use the remaining 2 weeks if I chose to. I had already been to the PI before and had actually got married in '06 (was in the process of immigrating her), so I flew back on my initial 2-week leave, and a few days before it was up I emailed in to use the remaining 2 weeks. Of course, as I thought, the ***holes tried to deny my 2-weeks, I argued it had already been approved, and the next email I received was that I was laid off - lol. So, not knowing the certainty of finding another job stateside soon and with a much bigger overhead to earn versus here, I decided to stay.

Before my promotion to Greater ATL, I was on the set team. We serviced almost all the Home Depots from New Mexico - the Virgin Lands and as far north as Virginia. So chances are if you've ever bought moulding from Home Depot, I was one of the guys who built the Gravity feeder boxes for the door/window trim packs, Peg boxes, backers for the moulding, etc.

Eh, oops, but back on track. Yeah, I could probably do this myself, but I have found a dealer that is selling the PB-1000 Pro for $900. That's $300 over the price stateside but you got to factor in shipping costs($20 freight), insurance($20?), 12% taxes ($77), 10% custom duties($72), the vendors time and profits(+20% @ $158) = $947 and he's selling it for $900. So unless the driver + amp is significantly cheaper than $600, I'm not sure it would be worthwhile?
 
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lucas122478

lucas122478

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There's a vintage audio, Phillipines, Facebook Group.
Perhaps more choices are available, secondhand.

Unfortunately, the second-hand market for anything 9 out of 10 times here is not worth it. Whereas, on average Americans will dump used products from anywhere between -50% to -75% discount to (free). Filipinos try to sell used stuff at +50% to -10% of what they paid for it. (lol)
 
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lucas122478

lucas122478

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Regarding subs…
Purchasing subs that haven’t been tested using the CEA-2010 protocol (which stress tests a sub to find how loud it will play, before distorting), is risky.
Take a look at my “subwoofer comparison” spreadsheet. Link in bio.

If I understand this correctly I base what sub is better on how high the number is for 25hz and 40hz?

I did find a (Ranked #120) SVS PB-1000 Pro for $900 here. However, (Ranked #68) JBL 4645c ranks higher and is $860. If I can special order this thru JBL at around the same price should I go with the JBL instead?
 

sweetchaos

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Harmon Kardon Citation 10" Sub $920 => No CEA-2010 data
Alto TS318S $830 => PA sub, avoid.
Velodyne EQ-MAX 15 $760 => Currently discontinued, and we have CEA-2010 data for EQ-Max12, and results are weak, rated for "small/medium" room.
ELAC Debut Sub3030 12" $710 => No CEA-2010 data, but we have data for SUB3070, and it's very weak (rated for "medium" rooms), especially for it's price.
Alto TS215S $630 => PA sub, avoid.
PreSonus Temblor T10 $600 => No CEA-2010 data
PreSonus TEmblor T8 $500 => No CEA-2010 data
Elac Debut S10EQ $560 => Currently discontinued
Q ACOUSTICS 3070S $530 => No CEA-2010 data.
Q ACOUSTIC 3060S $530=> We have CEA-2010 data. Rated for "Small" room.
BIC America 12" Down-firing $370 => Don't know this model?
BIC America V1020 10" $325 => We have CEA-2010 data. Rated for "Small" room.

Overall, none of the subs you mentioned stand out...I would try to get good measuring subs, like the SVS. As you can easily tell by the spreadsheet, SVS subs are worth the money.

If I understand this correctly I base what sub is better on how high the number is for 25hz and 40hz?

I did find a PB-1000 Pro for $900 here. However, JBL 4645c ranks higher and is $860. If I can special order this thru JBL at around the same price should I go with the JBL instead?
Try to get the biggest output (for the lowest frequency) for the money that you can.

Keep in mind, JBL 4645c is PASSIVE, so you'll need to purchase an external amplifier as well. My recommendation is to choose active subs (with amplifier built in), since it will work immediately out of the box.

My pick would be SVS.
 
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