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New 110th Anniversary Denon products with "ULTRA AL32"

anmpr1

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Why don't any of the Denon amps have a pre-out? There's no way to attach a subwoofer to these things.
There is a 'record out' terminal on the back. I presume this is a line level output? If so one could input it to an active sub using its internal crossover. But then you would not be able to use the tape function of the amp.
 

maxp779

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There is a 'record out' terminal on the back. I presume this is a line level output? If so one could input it to an active sub using its internal crossover. But then you would not be able to use the tape function of the amp.

Wouldn't that output to the sub at maximum volume though? Surely a variable output is needed?
 

anmpr1

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Wouldn't that output to the sub at maximum volume though? Surely a variable output is needed?
The rec out should be fixed level. Active subs I'm familiar with have their own gain controls. I'm just guessing, of course. Like you, I don't know why this Denon doesn't have facilities for a dedicated sub out. Integrated amps are not nearly as feature friendly as they were in the past.
 

ichonderoga

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There is a 'record out' terminal on the back. I presume this is a line level output? If so one could input it to an active sub using its internal crossover. But then you would not be able to use the tape function of the amp.
pre-out is attenuated, and line (rec) out is not. regulating volume two places 1. on the amp (usually via remote) and 2. on the sub (manual dial) is far from ideal ... hence the wish for a pre-out.
 

anmpr1

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I wonder about the design decisions in this (and other products in the series). We find some emphasis on phono, but no provisions to adjust either MM or MC loading, no subsonic filtering, and no provisions for monophonic listening. Those features used to be standard with top of the line analog oriented integrated amplifiers. I guess the designers decided those things are not important. Or they had to keep costs in line.

Denon sells a $600.00 'special edition' (not sure what is special about it other than the 'retro' headshell) 110 year anniversary DL-103 (now called the DL-A110). OK. But for crying out loud, they don't offer a suitable record player to go with their moderately expensive cartridge. The ones they sell are flimsy looking, and have their own phono stage making the one on the amp redundant.

This whole thing more and more looks like a half-baked marketing opportunity. On the other hand, if one has a wide variety of different format digital sources, uses at least moderately sensitive stand alone speakers (i.e., no sub), and if they don't care too much about phono but require an all in one package, then this integrated might be the key to the highway.

They don't give it away, that's for sure. For the price it would be a nice cosmetic touch to offer polished wood side panels Denon used to include with their higher end line.
 

Sugarbubble

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I have serial number 006 Of this 110th anniversary amp. I use it mainly to drive some Spendor d7s. It looks great and sounds great. It replaced a vintage KRELL I bought in 1992. I Use it with records and cds and with streaming sources via digital inputs. Waiting for technics to iron out the bugs in the preproduction suR1000 to jump into digital amps. I like the tech they have going into it, but will wait for reviews before purchasing. Cheers.
 

VintageFlanker

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Measurements by Hi-Fi News.
121denon.lab1.jpg

Very good distortion figures, better SNR than 2500NE... while clearly less powerful.:confused:
 

watchnerd

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I have serial number 006 Of this 110th anniversary amp. I use it mainly to drive some Spendor d7s. It looks great and sounds great. It replaced a vintage KRELL I bought in 1992. I Use it with records and cds and with streaming sources via digital inputs. Waiting for technics to iron out the bugs in the preproduction suR1000 to jump into digital amps. I like the tech they have going into it, but will wait for reviews before purchasing. Cheers.

If only Denon would put in a VU meter...
 

VintageFlanker

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Okay, but it's a hair-splittingly small difference in the real world.
2500NE - 198W continuous into 4 ohm
PMA-110 - 180W continuous into 4 ohm
That's <1 dB/Watt difference.
Right. But when you look closer at measurements, differences are quite significant.;)

Continuous power (<1% THD, 8ohm)
- A110: 93W
- 2500: 125W

Dynamic power (<1% THD, 8/4/2/1ohm):
- A110: 95W / 184W / 346W / 618W
- 2500: 165W / 300W / 510W / 777W

At last: 24.9A current for the A110, 27.9A for the 2500NE.
 
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hmscott

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They are both totally different amplifier implementations, PMA-2500NE one-stage, PMA-A110 two-stage:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...on-products-with-ultra-al32.15864/post-508985

"The PMA-2500NE used a one-stage amplification with a high-gain amplifier, while the PMA-A110 adopted a new two-stage configuration with a variable gain preamp and a power amplifier. By incrementing or decreasing the gain of the preamp according to the volume, the noise level can be dramatically improved by amplifying only the power amplifier without amplifying the preamp within the range of commonly used volume."

Not the same product, not the same amplification solution.
 

watchnerd

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They are both totally different amplifier implementations, PMA-2500NE one-stage, PMA-A110 two-stage:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...on-products-with-ultra-al32.15864/post-508985

"The PMA-2500NE used a one-stage amplification with a high-gain amplifier, while the PMA-A110 adopted a new two-stage configuration with a variable gain preamp and a power amplifier. By incrementing or decreasing the gain of the preamp according to the volume, the noise level can be dramatically improved by amplifying only the power amplifier without amplifying the preamp within the range of commonly used volume."

Not the same product, not the same amplification solution.

So by those lab reports:

PMA-2500NE SNR (analog): 81.2 dB
PMA-110 SNR (amp?? is that the analog stage?): 94.5 dB

So maybe the noise reduction benefit claims are true...
 

Sugarbubble

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The power difference is Not really significant unless you wish to go deaf or are driving very inefficient speakers. For me, I am using less than 5 watts typically before my wife goes on a rampage. I love the ultra low distortion as measured on the bench. I imagine that is significant to my perception of good sound quality. Plus the looks! Was glad to see the glowing review and measurements, makes me fell that I got a bargain.
 

watchnerd

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I can't find any info on the specs for the loading options of the phono stage or the output impedance of the headphone amp.
 

watchnerd

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Something that used machine learning and was fed a ton of music to understand the correct dynamic range of any instrument playing so that it could undo the destruction of generations of art carried out by studio engineers and labels would be good. Could also be used to reduce noise in an automated way (like MQA claims to do with some remasters when the original was made on a machine that had a known issue.)

I'd pay quite a bit for that.

Why not just listen to versions that haven't been dynamically compressed so much?

Then you don't need an AI to solve the compression problem.
 

stevenswall

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Why not just listen to versions that haven't been dynamically compressed so much?

Then you don't need an AI to solve the compression problem.

Because those versions don't exist in many cases. If they did, you're right, we wouldn't need to worry about it. When it's older 80's music sometimes I have luck looking on the dynamic range database though and getting the right CD from Discogs.
 

watchnerd

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Because those versions don't exist in many cases. If they did, you're right, we wouldn't need to worry about it. When it's older 80's music sometimes I have luck looking on the dynamic range database though and getting the right CD from Discogs.

Do you have an example of where it doesn't exist anymore?

Maybe I just don't listen to the right genres to run across this problem (jazz, blues, fusion, classical, some classic rock).
 

stevenswall

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Do you have an example of where it doesn't exist...?

Maybe I just don't listen to the right genres to run across this problem (jazz, blues, fusion, classical, some classic rock).

The anymore part isn't what I'm arguing, but we could look at Led Zeppling for stuff that is compressed and comes off as a wall of noise that in an ideal world could be corrected with AI. We could also look at the top 40 songs in most major genres, which eventually will have a few that are recognized as gems when it's all old enough for snobs to accept it, but the songs will still have compression issues.

Changing the Maybe to Probably, I'd say you're probably right: If you listen to only those genres and only to music where you don't run across this problem then it's not a problem.
 
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