Mine arrived in boxes.
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Neumann KH420 Review (Studio Monitor)
- Thread starter amirm
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auraluxstudio
Active Member
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2020
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- 112
Honestly, the packaging was fairly flimsy. The speakers arrived intact, but it was obvious the packing foam did its job and absorbed the beating it took from shipping. I like keeping the boxes my gear comes in for future transpo, but didn’t keep these as they were useless.
I’m going to look into flight cases.
auraluxstudio
Active Member
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2020
- Messages
- 101
- Likes
- 112
My bet is on boxes. If the grilles cost $1000 I don't want to know how much flight cases are.
These shipments should be properly insured. So I wouldn't worry about it. I moved my O410s in a car with blankets. I'm sure Neumann packs them well enough.
Best way to ship any of these big boxes is on a pallet. In my experience (re: care of fragile stuff) FedEx is better than UPS, but not always. I tried searching for flight cases for my 420's yesterday, couldn't find any. I found KH310 flight cases for $720, OUCH!
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PS -
I have the grilles on mine (my special needs, music loving son loves to touch the drivers) and they're great - super easy to slide on and off!!
Yeah. Very expensive as it's very niche. Might get some made cheaper
I have them as well. Worried about accidents and/or nephew. They are nice but I just leave them on. The little felt spacers that came with them fell off on first install. I replaced with a few layers of electrical tape. No rattles yet. Wish they had just used full length felt tape or something instead.
I couldn't get the felt stickers to work either... I also use the grills w/o those lil pads.. zero issue with rattle.. I do take the grilles off when I'm going to listen for a long time, but mostly, this is how they live...Yeah. Very expensive as it's very niche. Might get some made cheaper
I have them as well. Worried about accidents and/or nephew. They are nice but I just leave them on. The little felt spacers that came with them fell off on first install. I replaced with a few layers of electrical tape. No rattles yet. Wish they had just used full length felt tape or something instead.
Looking good!
So I have been reading here for quite some time, to learn and explore good setups that support my hobby and passion: playing (DJ) and listening to music.
I didn't feel any need to post before because I couldn't add any good content to the discussions. By searching the forum all my questions have been answered and I was able to make up my own mind. However, now I have some hands on experience that I can share which hopefully is valuable for other people that are interested in these speakers.
The speakers are set up in a 50m2 almost square room with 2.8m ceilings, 2m from the front wall and 0.8m from the nearest side wall. Speakers are 2.2m apart and sit on 0.32m high stands with isolation between both speakers, stands and floor. Listening position is around 4m from the speakers anywhere in a 3m sofa which is 0.5m from the back wall (glass). Room has some acoustical treatment (acoustic panels, carpets, soft furniture) and is filling up more and more with plants. Not the most ideal setup, but it fits really nice in the interior
Luckily my initial plan, calculations and expectations have proven to be quite good. I do not have any in-room measurements but hopefully this gives some insights.
These are definitely not my only thoughts and again, they are just thoughts. But when I was looking for speakers these kind of experiences helped me make a choice. Next to all the great measurements of course. If you have any questions feel free to ask.
I didn't feel any need to post before because I couldn't add any good content to the discussions. By searching the forum all my questions have been answered and I was able to make up my own mind. However, now I have some hands on experience that I can share which hopefully is valuable for other people that are interested in these speakers.
The speakers are set up in a 50m2 almost square room with 2.8m ceilings, 2m from the front wall and 0.8m from the nearest side wall. Speakers are 2.2m apart and sit on 0.32m high stands with isolation between both speakers, stands and floor. Listening position is around 4m from the speakers anywhere in a 3m sofa which is 0.5m from the back wall (glass). Room has some acoustical treatment (acoustic panels, carpets, soft furniture) and is filling up more and more with plants. Not the most ideal setup, but it fits really nice in the interior
Luckily my initial plan, calculations and expectations have proven to be quite good. I do not have any in-room measurements but hopefully this gives some insights.
- No break-in needed.
- Bass respons and integration is very good. Never do I have the idea that there is too much bass relative to the other frequencies. Although these speakers go amazingly deep, the lows at the listening position are extremely tight and to be able to hear (and feel!) sub-bass frequencies is quite the experience.
- There is no substantial difference in listening experience moving between the left part to the right part of the sofa.
- I don't want to start a discussion about soundstage and imaging, but it doesn't extend very wide from what I hear. The details in the music fill the whole room and can be picked out individually, but there is no holographic effect at the listening position as some other speakers I have heard.
- No matter what I play through them there is just nothing that sounds worse or better. From instrumental, percussion, voices to drums and bass, nothing stands out. I guess this is the boring part of the speaker that I have come across several times online.
- I have not been able reach the limiter and probably will never do. The speakers can go so amazingly loud without any change in sound quality, I can turn my home into a small club.
- While the speakers can go loud, I am mostly impressed by the low to normal playback levels where even the sub-bass is still audible at the listening position without bothering any neighbours.
- The grills are a lot of money but now they are on, I don't think I will ever remove them. I did not experience a sound difference on or off. I like how they look, feel and really protect the precious parts. In the daylight they are quite transparant and you can see the drivers through the grill, while at night they look opaque.
- The warmth of the backplate reminds me of all the hard work that is happening in the speakers. Although never hot and just warm, I would advice some airflow around the speaker if the operating space is above 30C.
- Although they may look very utilitarian, I believe the speakers integrate much easier into timeless interiors than many design speakers. The paint finish is sublime with the subtle metallic detail and all the corners are nicely rounded and smooth. And I love that it is not shiny at all.
- The notable speaker dimensions are wide and deep. But this is all relative to the room and I wouldn't place them in a small room anyway. Nonetheless, when you remove them from their box they are impressive and chunky!
- Finding some stands for them can be quite difficult and expensive. I use concrete U-profiles with 30x30x40cm dimensions and added isolation feet and material to protect the floor, speakers and downstairs neighbours. I am very happy with the result, both financially as acoustically.
These are definitely not my only thoughts and again, they are just thoughts. But when I was looking for speakers these kind of experiences helped me make a choice. Next to all the great measurements of course. If you have any questions feel free to ask.
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Would love to see in-room measurements! You might also find, since your seating position is so far from the speakers, that moving the couch forward a little could help, especially the soundstage/holographic effect. I suspect you are hearing as much reflected as direct sound. So doing a measurement there would be interesting as well. Once you learn how to do a moving microphone measurement it’s very quick and easy (like 2 minutes).
I was gonna bring up the exact same point that @MediumRare made above me, you won't get that "holographic 3D feel" of the soundstage unless you're setup in an equilateral triangle with the speakers & listening position - so if your speakers are 2.2m apart then ideally you would sit 2.2m apart from each speaker, but I appreciate that this is not always possible in a room, which is why my main listening position is at 3.8m and my speakers are only 1.3m apart, (albeit I do have a RoomEQ profile saved for a 1.3m listening position if I move a comfy chair close to the speakers for temporary movie watching or proper music listening). I don't have your speakers but I have JBL 308p Mkii's, and really you only get the proper imaging & soundstage if you make sure you're doing the equilateral triangle thing, or not that far off from that, it's a proper big difference! I'd have zero doubt that imaging & soundstage would be great for your speakers if you were in equilateral triangle.So I have been reading here for quite some time, to learn and explore good setups that support my hobby and passion: playing (DJ) and listening to music.
I didn't feel any need to post before because I couldn't add any good content to the discussions. By searching the forum all my questions have been answered and I was able to make up my own mind. However, now I have some hands on experience that I can share which hopefully is valuable for other people that are interested in these speakers.
The speakers are set up in a 50m2 almost square room with 2.8m ceilings, 2m from the front wall and 0.8m from the nearest side wall. Speakers are 2.2m apart and sit on 0.32m high stands with isolation between both speakers, stands and floor. Listening position is around 4m from the speakers anywhere in a 3m sofa which is 0.5m from the back wall (glass). Room has some acoustical treatment (acoustic panels, carpets, soft furniture) and is filling up more and more with plants. Not the most ideal setup, but it fits really nice in the interior
Luckily my initial plan, calculations and expectations have proven to be quite good. I do not have any in-room measurements but hopefully this gives some insights.
As a last part for the DJ purpose. The KH420's are my mains. Between the speakers is my TV/DJ console which has KH80's pointed at ear level towards the front wall for monitoring. I was considering adding subs to support the KH80's but with both playing together is there is no need at all. Effortless integration of sound and a joy to experience the same level of sound quality (or even better) as the people in the listening position. Maybe in this case, the lack of constant directivity in the lows from the KH420's could be a big plus
- No break-in needed.
- Bass respons and integration is very good. Never do I have the idea that there is too much bass relative to the other frequencies. Although these speakers go amazingly deep, the lows at the listening position are extremely tight and to be able to hear (and feel!) sub-bass frequencies is quite the experience.
- There is no substantial difference in listening experience moving between the left part to the right part of the sofa.
- I don't want to start a discussion about soundstage and imaging, but it doesn't extend very wide from what I hear. The details in the music fill the whole room and can be picked out individually, but there is no holographic effect at the listening position as some other speakers I have heard.
- No matter what I play through them there is just nothing that sounds worse or better. From instrumental, percussion, voices to drums and bass, nothing stands out. I guess this is the boring part of the speaker that I have come across several times online.
- I have not been able reach the limiter and probably will never do. The speakers can go so amazingly loud without any change in sound quality, I can turn my home into a small club.
- While the speakers can go loud, I am mostly impressed by the low to normal playback levels where even the sub-bass is still audible at the listening position without bothering any neighbours.
- The grills are a lot of money but now they are on, I don't think I will ever remove them. I did not experience a sound difference on or off. I like how they look, feel and really protect the precious parts. In the daylight they are quite transparant and you can see the drivers through the grill, while at night they look opaque.
- The warmth of the backplate reminds me of all the hard work that is happening in the speakers. Although never hot and just warm, I would advice some airflow around the speaker if the operating space is above 30C.
- Although they may look very utilitarian, I believe the speakers integrate much easier into timeless interiors than many design speakers. The paint finish is sublime with the subtle metallic detail and all the corners are nicely rounded and smooth. And I love that it is not shiny at all.
- The notable speaker dimensions are wide and deep. But this is all relative to the room and I wouldn't place them in a small room anyway. Nonetheless, when you remove them from their box they are impressive and chunky!
- Finding some stands for them can be quite difficult and expensive. I use concrete U-profiles with 30x30x40cm dimensions and added isolation feet and material to protect the floor, speakers and downstairs neighbours. I am very happy with the result, both financially as acoustically.
These are definitely not my only thoughts and again, they are just thoughts. But when I was looking for speakers these kind of experiences helped me make a choice. Next to all the great measurements of course. If you have any questions feel free to ask.
Next stage up is doing some in room measurements using REW & UMIK, again as @MediumRare mentioned and you can get some improvements from doing so, but it will be a bit of a rabbit hole of complexity and optimisation. To be honest I've found Anechoic Flat Speakers left untamed in a room quite satisfying, which is exactly what you're doing, and I ran with that for a good long while, even after I'd initially tried Room EQ - just letting them run wild will mean they will sound most natural through the whole room if you don't have a fixed listening position, but you can optimise them for a listening position with RoomEQ but it can make them sound worse in other parts of the room.
I have in room measurements of the KH420 but only corrected and bass managed via the Trinnov.
Thank you for the suggestions. I am aware this is not the most optimal setup, but the best achievable in this room. And to be honest I rather have the soundstage suffer a bit than have a lousy bass response. Just as an example that I know I can't have everything if I want to keep my girlfriend in the same house.
So I haven't gotten into measurements myself yet, but I wonder what it would get me apart from numbers? I may be able to move my speakers some cm's left, right, back and forth but that's about it. And adding DSP is no option at the moment because I want to enjoy a fully analogue sound path and like @Robbo99999 mentioned, maybe let it run wild a bit in the whole room. Funny thing though is that when I use the KH80's as monitors to DJ, setup in a perfect triangle, I do experience a bigger soundstage beyond the little speakers. So you see me behind the booth very often!
I guess we are all perfectionist in here when it comes to audio and squeezing the very best out of these very best speakers. But even though it could be better in theory, it's still so so amazing and something I hope to enjoy for many years to come. Apart from positioning I can hardly imagine another speaker doing even better than this. In a room planned by an interior architect who rather has no speakers at all
So I haven't gotten into measurements myself yet, but I wonder what it would get me apart from numbers? I may be able to move my speakers some cm's left, right, back and forth but that's about it. And adding DSP is no option at the moment because I want to enjoy a fully analogue sound path and like @Robbo99999 mentioned, maybe let it run wild a bit in the whole room. Funny thing though is that when I use the KH80's as monitors to DJ, setup in a perfect triangle, I do experience a bigger soundstage beyond the little speakers. So you see me behind the booth very often!
I guess we are all perfectionist in here when it comes to audio and squeezing the very best out of these very best speakers. But even though it could be better in theory, it's still so so amazing and something I hope to enjoy for many years to come. Apart from positioning I can hardly imagine another speaker doing even better than this. In a room planned by an interior architect who rather has no speakers at all
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BTW, the KH420 has 1 analogue PEQ built in, that can be used to tame the biggest room mode. So, a measurement could still be useful for you, even if you don't want a DSP.Thank you for the suggestions. I am aware this is not the most optimal setup, but the best achievable in this room. And to be honest I rather have the soundstage suffer a bit than have a lousy bass response. Just as an example that I know I can't have everything if I want to keep my girlfriend in the same house.
So I haven't gotten into measurements myself yet, but I wonder what it would get me apart from numbers? I may be able to move my speakers some cm's left, right, back and forth but that's about it. And adding DSP is no option at the moment because I want to enjoy a fully analogue sound path and like @Robbo99999 mentioned, maybe let it run wild a bit in the whole room. Funny thing though is that when I use the KH80's as monitors to DJ, setup in a perfect triangle, I do experience a bigger soundstage beyond the little speakers. So you see me behind the booth very often!
I guess we are all perfectionist in here when it comes to audio and squeezing the very best out of these very best speakers. But even though it could be better in theory, it's still so so amazing and something I hope to enjoy for many years to come. Apart from positioning I can hardly imagine another speaker doing even better than this. In a room planned by an interior architect who rather has no speakers at all
HuubFranssen
Member
So I have been reading here for quite some time, to learn and explore good setups that support my hobby and passion: playing (DJ) and listening to music.
I didn't feel any need to post before because I couldn't add any good content to the discussions. By searching the forum all my questions have been answered and I was able to make up my own mind. However, now I have some hands on experience that I can share which hopefully is valuable for other people that are interested in these speakers.
The speakers are set up in a 50m2 almost square room with 2.8m ceilings, 2m from the front wall and 0.8m from the nearest side wall. Speakers are 2.2m apart and sit on 0.32m high stands with isolation between both speakers, stands and floor. Listening position is around 4m from the speakers anywhere in a 3m sofa which is 0.5m from the back wall (glass). Room has some acoustical treatment (acoustic panels, carpets, soft furniture) and is filling up more and more with plants. Not the most ideal setup, but it fits really nice in the interior
Luckily my initial plan, calculations and expectations have proven to be quite good. I do not have any in-room measurements but hopefully this gives some insights.
As a last part for the DJ purpose. The KH420's are my mains. Between the speakers is my TV/DJ console which has KH80's pointed at ear level towards the front wall for monitoring. I was considering adding subs to support the KH80's but with both playing together is there is no need at all. Effortless integration of sound and a joy to experience the same level of sound quality (or even better) as the people in the listening position. Maybe in this case, the lack of constant directivity in the lows from the KH420's could be a big plus
- No break-in needed.
- Bass respons and integration is very good. Never do I have the idea that there is too much bass relative to the other frequencies. Although these speakers go amazingly deep, the lows at the listening position are extremely tight and to be able to hear (and feel!) sub-bass frequencies is quite the experience.
- There is no substantial difference in listening experience moving between the left part to the right part of the sofa.
- I don't want to start a discussion about soundstage and imaging, but it doesn't extend very wide from what I hear. The details in the music fill the whole room and can be picked out individually, but there is no holographic effect at the listening position as some other speakers I have heard.
- No matter what I play through them there is just nothing that sounds worse or better. From instrumental, percussion, voices to drums and bass, nothing stands out. I guess this is the boring part of the speaker that I have come across several times online.
- I have not been able reach the limiter and probably will never do. The speakers can go so amazingly loud without any change in sound quality, I can turn my home into a small club.
- While the speakers can go loud, I am mostly impressed by the low to normal playback levels where even the sub-bass is still audible at the listening position without bothering any neighbours.
- The grills are a lot of money but now they are on, I don't think I will ever remove them. I did not experience a sound difference on or off. I like how they look, feel and really protect the precious parts. In the daylight they are quite transparant and you can see the drivers through the grill, while at night they look opaque.
- The warmth of the backplate reminds me of all the hard work that is happening in the speakers. Although never hot and just warm, I would advice some airflow around the speaker if the operating space is above 30C.
- Although they may look very utilitarian, I believe the speakers integrate much easier into timeless interiors than many design speakers. The paint finish is sublime with the subtle metallic detail and all the corners are nicely rounded and smooth. And I love that it is not shiny at all.
- The notable speaker dimensions are wide and deep. But this is all relative to the room and I wouldn't place them in a small room anyway. Nonetheless, when you remove them from their box they are impressive and chunky!
- Finding some stands for them can be quite difficult and expensive. I use concrete U-profiles with 30x30x40cm dimensions and added isolation feet and material to protect the floor, speakers and downstairs neighbours. I am very happy with the result, both financially as acoustically.
These are definitely not my only thoughts and again, they are just thoughts. But when I was looking for speakers these kind of experiences helped me make a choice. Next to all the great measurements of course. If you have any questions feel free to ask.
Interesting to read your experiences!
I have the KH420’s exactly 1 year now and slowly but surely the feeling grows that there is no better speaker for me. The reasons are: completely problemfree, best sound without things like burning in, warming up or cable swapping, no need for subwoofer, indestructible (with grills), industrial look like 2 steamlocs and in Europe relatively cheap.
The excellent objective review from Amir, the good name of Neumann and good subjective reviews led me to these babies.
For the stand I started with U-shaped concrete too but they are in the garden now, where they belong. They are replaced by iron fish-tank like constructions. I think they sound better but the looks are also a bit less massive.
The sound is most spacey when there is a perfect triangle between you and the speakers. You can try this out by moving fore/afterward.
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dasdoing
Major Contributor
why?
latency?
you wont hear/feel a diference between a digital IIR filter and an analoge one other than that the digital one will be transparent (at least in the magnitude)
Waxx
Major Contributor
It's true that modern dsp's like the MiniDSP Flex are totally transparent on sound when set to neutral. I also hesitated long because i heared the digital procesing in a bad way before. But that issue can be considered as resolved with some models. And eq (FIR/IRR/Dirac like) does a lot good in a room. I also send my turntable trough it now even in my own setup (that has a Flex, but other (diy) speakers). I don't know the quality of the MA1, but if it's not on that level yet, a miniDSP Flex certainly is. I installed a system like that with a pair of KH420's a while ago, and the owner (a classical musician) could not be happier. In the meantime i also listened to that setup a lot, an in that room (that is professionally treated) it's the best setup i ever heared and the eq'ing to the room is a big part of it.
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