My Problem With Inexpensive Electronics

[StefaanE]

The biggest hassle is that whenever I search for parts I see them on sale from UK and Germany but none in US. So other than sourcing used parts, there is no option here like you have in Europe.

Miele keeps (or used to keep) spare parts for 20 years, and until the debacle with our second Miele washing machine (in 43 years, the first one lasted for 26 years, doing the laundry for a family with 6 kids), we’ve been very happy with the performance, reliability and longevity of Miele machines and the quality of the Miele service. This time too, their telephone operator was courteous and sounded efficient and knowledgeable. The repairman on the other hand was a complete let-down. But he was alone, and I guess he didn’t come prepared to take the machine back to the workshop. That being said, they lost a customer because the service was lousy when it mattered, and they didn’t have a suitable machine for our purposes.
Only a year ago I replaced our Siemens dishwasher (a real POS) with a Miele, which has superior washing performance and, I hope, none of the problems you experienced.

 

[raistlin65]

It's interesting to see so many people in this thread form brand reliability opinions based on anecdotal evidence which is not even close to statistically relevant.

 

[StefaanE]

It's interesting to see so many people in this thread form brand reliability opinions based on anecdotal evidence which is not even close to statistically relevant.

Good quality statistical evidence isn’t readily available, I don’t know if it is even collected.

 

[Helicopter]

It's interesting to see so many people in this thread form brand reliability opinions based on anecdotal evidence which is not even close to statistically relevant.

My LG front loader failed after 18 months, the warranty was worthless, and I bought a fancy LG top loader.

 

[RayDunzl]

It's interesting to see so many people in this thread form brand reliability opinions based on anecdotal evidence which is not even close to statistically relevant.

You buy something it breaks you can't fix it.

That would be statistically relevant to me.

 

[LightninBoy]

Ditto for KitchenAid, another Whirlpool brand. Ours was repaired repeatedly and still never worked right. Absolute junk.

Our LG has been flawless. Funny what was once a cheapo Korean brand (Goldstar) has completely taken over the appliance market.

Martin

This, along with my contrasting experience described below, perfectly illustrates the consumer's plight when attempting to buy based on "reliability" when the entire industry is pushing stupid features and bling and not paying attention to reliability or (even more critical) reparability.

We bought an LG (Kenmore branded) fridge. Lasted only 7 years before the compressor crapped out a few months ago. This is a catastrophic failure and we lost at least $200 worth of food. When I researched I discovered this was a common problem and LG lost a class action suit over it. Didn't apply to Kenmore branded LGs unfortunately. Actually, we got more time out of it than most. But no service company would bother to even come out to look at it - it wasn't worth fixing and if you did it would only last another 2-5 years or so before crapping out again.

The research I did recently (like 2 months ago) suggests that Whirlpool and its spinoff brands are the most reliable fridge. But all of them are bad compared to previous generations. This article sums it up well: https://consumersane.com/most-reliable-refrigerator-brand/

Its just one article, but the points it made were consistent with many others: basically the consumer is screwed. I went with Whirlpool primarily because it has the largest service network (and why I used to buy Kenmore before Sears took a dive)

 

[LTig]

It's interesting to see so many people in this thread form brand reliability opinions based on anecdotal evidence which is not even close to statistically relevant.

Well, fact is that Miele has a very good reputation regarding longevity, and the customers pay for that. Many people here know parents or older relatives or friends who own a 30 year old Miele washing machine in good working condition.

I don't know whether this reputation is still valid. What I do know is: we bought a new dish washer to replace a broken one (don't remember the make, it was not Miele and came with the kitchen) some 6+ years ago. We mentioned that we would prefer Miele because our 1992 vintage Miele washing machine was still working fine with no repair yet (and still does today after 28 years of trouble free service - knock on wood). The dealer however honestly told us that we should not expect a lifetime of 30 years from current models compared to older models. He told us that the life expectency depends on usage:

• For a small house hold the machine would live long,
• not so long for a bigger household,
• and maybe just 2 years when used sveral times a day as in a restaurant. For this scenario Miele would sell machines for pro usage with prolonged life expectency at a much higher price (something like €5k+).

We still bought the Miele, I think it was €900 including installation.

 

[amirm]

This is a catastrophic failure and we lost at least $200 worth of food.

Most catastrophic version of this happened to us. I bought one of those cheap chest freezers from local big box store and filled with a ton of meat. Didn't pay attention to it until a few months later. Opened it and it had the most awful smell. It had stopped working and everything had thawed out and gone bad. It was a quarter full with blood and meet juice. Disgusting. Quick search online pointed to a $5 part that goes bad. Bought it but never bothered putting it in.

 

[raistlin65]

Good quality statistical evidence isn’t readily available, I don’t know if it is even collected.

Depends on what products. Consumer Reports collects reliability information about appliances, which have been part of this discussion.

Of course, borrowing from what people say about investing: past performance does not necessarily indicate future results when it comes to buying newer models that have not been tested.

 

[amirm]

The dealer however honestly told us that we should not expect a lifetime of 30 years from current models compared to older models.

Yeh the repair guy told us the useful life of the Miele dishwasher is 15 years at most. Most likely 12 years.

 

[Blumlein 88]

It's not that odd. In days of yore, engine crankcases were vented to atmosphere. This kept intake manifolds spotlessly clean, but polluted the atmosphere. PCV was introduced to route the crankcase breather vent to the intake manifold. This keeps the atmosphere clean, forcing the engine to burn the polluted vapor venting from the crankcase. But even with PCV, intake manifolds still stayed nice and clean. Why? Because fuel is an excellent solvent and the fuel vapor (whether carbureted or fuel injected) was introduced in the intake manifold.

Fast forward a few years to direct injection, where the fuel is injected through the cylinder walls (or through a separate port in the cylinder head), not passing through, but bypassing, the intake valve. This enables fuel timing independent of intake valve timing, which improves efficiency and power. Now there is only air, no fuel, flowing through the intake manifold and valve. This means the entire intake manifold is "dry". There is nothing (no fuel) to keep the intake manifold clean, and the polluted vaporous gunk from the crankcase PCV gradually builds up in the intake manifold.

Anybody mention issues with variable valve timing cam phasors and how critical oil cleanliness has become? Or how some brands have issues with the timing chain tensioner as miles accumulate? Things that weren't a thing before direct injection and vvt.

 

[Blumlein 88]

My LG front loader failed after 18 months, the warranty was worthless, and I bought a fancy LG top loader.

Don't buy LG fridges. Worthless warranty and high chance of failure. LG won't sell just anybody parts either. They make it so any repairs cost more than it's worth.

 

[Helicopter]

Now that this is an appliance thread, Ill just say, I had a job before college doing apartment maintenance and we repaired appliances, probably 350 sets of late 90s Hotpoints (GE made). Those were reasonably reliable, and usually cheap and easy to fix. I think they were intentionally ugly so people would buy GE. No way GE had any advantage in price, reliability, or repairability. Looks, features, and performance, of course.

Don't buy LG fridges. Worthless warranty and high chance of failure. LG won't sell just anybody parts either. They make it so any repairs cost more than it's worth.

I got a Samsung. Fingers crossed.

 

[raistlin65]

Well, fact is that Miele has a very good reputation regarding longevity, and the customers pay for that. Many people here know parents or older relatives or friends who own a 30 year old Miele washing machine in good working condition.

I don't know whether this reputation is still valid. What I do know is: we bought a new dish washer to replace a broken one (don't remember the make, it was not Miele and came with the kitchen) some 6+ years ago. We mentioned that we would prefer Miele because our 1992 vintage Miele washing machine was still working fine with no repair yet (and still does today after 28 years of trouble free service - knock on wood). The dealer however honestly told us that we should not expect a lifetime of 30 years from current models compared to older models. He told us that the life expectency depends on usage:

• For a small house hold the machine would live long,
• not so long for a bigger household,
• and maybe just 2 years when used sveral times a day as in a restaurant. For this scenario Miele would sell machines for pro usage with prolonged life expectency at a much higher price (something like €5k+).

We still bought the Miele, I think it was €900 including installation.

I get it. I have a 23 year old Maytag electric dryer which has never had any major problems other than the sensor going out or a fuse. Now the bearings are squeaking and it's having other problems that indicate all the main moving parts which can wear should probably be replaced.

Rather than having it rebuilt, I just ordered a new Maytag gas dryer this week. Supposedly they are still fairly reliable. But who knows?

Funny thing though about brand reputation. It's not always reliable. I don't know how many times I've seen someone say don't buy the JDS Labs Atom amp because of the build quality, referring to the plastic case which doesn't really affect the functionality. And at the same time recommend a Schiit Magni series amp, despite the QC issues with scratchy volume pots. Of course that issue is always omitted.

And because Schiit does a great job of building that loyalty, I bet you we hear way less about reliability of their products. In comparison to Topping, who quite clearly hasn't figured out the brand loyalty game yet. And they work with a handicap because they're Chinese, and so are automatically associated with lack of reliability. Jason Stoddard gets the white privilege advantage.

 

[Wes]

All generalisations, including this one, are dangerous .

depends on the voltage

 

[Wes]

Good quality statistical evidence isn’t readily available, I don’t know if it is even collected.

Consumers Union does it

 

[StefaanE]

Consumers Union does it

Using appropriate sampling etc, or do they simply collect consumer complaints? I worked circa 20 years for one of the international statistical bodies in the data collection service, and never came across such data.

 

[EJ3]

There a movement toward holding manufacturers responsible for a ‘right to repair’ that may resonate with this thread.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronics_right_to_repair

​

Let's take back our right to repair!
Help us get this manifesto posted in every workshop, hacker space, and garage in the world!
We're giving them away for (nearly) free
We really, really want people to read this manifesto. So much so that we printed up some awe-inspiring posters—and we want to mail you one! It's almost free, just pay for shipping! Head over here to order.

 

[thewas]

The biggest hassle is that whenever I search for parts I see them on sale from UK and Germany but none in US. So other than sourcing used parts, there is no option here like you have in Europe.

This is unfortunately often a problem (for example getting parts for the current Ford Mustang here in Europe is often quite tedious although its current generation is officially sold there) and gives an argument to buy only brands which are very common in the country you live in.

 

[Wombat]

Miele keeps (or used to keep) spare parts for 20 years, and until the debacle with our second Miele washing machine (in 43 years, the first one lasted for 26 years, doing the laundry for a family with 6 kids), we’ve been very happy with the performance, reliability and longevity of Miele machines and the quality of the Miele service. This time too, their telephone operator was courteous and sounded efficient and knowledgeable. The repairman on the other hand was a complete let-down. But he was alone, and I guess he didn’t come prepared to take the machine back to the workshop. That being said, they lost a customer because the service was lousy when it mattered, and they didn’t have a suitable machine for our purposes.
Only a year ago I replaced our Siemens dishwasher (a real POS) with a Miele, which has superior washing performance and, I hope, none of the problems you experienced.

I gained a little insider knowledge some time in the past. I had some professional involvement with the Australian Miele Organisation. The CEO told me that the Miele whitegoods were manufactured in Italy and basically were identical to other brands except for the front panels/fascias.

He further said that Miele did not 'sell appliances' but rather wholistic kitchen and laundry designs/concepts. A large part of the business was blank sheet renovations. They aimed at well heeled women or aspirational ones for sales. These customers routinely had 'new Meile kitchen' parties to show-off to their friends. The me-too desire meant more business for Miele. The sales of individual appliances was seen as a sideline.

It may be different now.

P.S. My in-laws had Miele appliances. Getting parts was a PIA. Again, may be different in other markets or now.