My Problem With Inexpensive Electronics

[LTig]

No it wasn't. You find me a single HiFi amplifer made in the 1970s-1980s where the full FTC rated power THD was 1%. Good luck. That's typical of numbers EU rated class Ds use in their data sheets in 2020.

0.1% THD was proudly stated at rated power in 1945 with the Harold Leak Point One, so named for its THD being less than 0.1% at full power. By the late 1970s, we had amplifiers with at least two leading zeroes after the decimal point.

I remember many amps in the 80ies had a max power rating at 1% THD and a slightly lower typical power rating at much lower THD. At least here.

 

[raistlin65]

Can you suggest a better alternative? Some sources like Consumer Reports may not be as trustworthy as people think, as they have their own limited sample size and bias.

Why do I need to suggest an alternative? Whether or not an alternative exists does not change the unreliability of relying on such limited anecdotal evidence.

 

[trl]

I have to add that I will NEVER EVER buy anything built by Whirlpool.

In the past manufacturers were building things to resist over time. My Whirlpool washing machine has its 18 years anniversary this month.

In the past 3 years I was trying to replace it with something else, no matter the brand, but every-time I saw terrifying reviews that postponed this action. Funny thing, in 18 years I had not one single issue with this washing machine, just regular cleaning inside did by myself and nothing else.

Now back to the initial topic, I was a bit intrigued myself too when I initially saw @Martin thread's name, but I immediately understood the real issue: lack of worldwide support during warranty and post-warranty by most manufacturers from ASIA continent. This is true in most cases and it's a real PIA. Australian continent is just a tad lower on South and they are able to deal differently with RMA issues, so it is possible if you really care about your customers (I don't intend to offence any manufactures here, just that they might need to do a different approach).

P.S.: Choosing words worldwide become very difficult today and the initial name of this thread title is an example. I also saw this myself the other days when a Romanian football arbiter was using in France the word "negru" (that means "black person)" and was miss-interpreted as being an English "ethnic slur". I'm glad he wasn't using "fac" that means "I do".

 

[MDAguy]

Some already know my take on "Made in China".. it's not a black and white position, so let me state the following.

For the longest time, made in China was just plan bad in my mind, a way for western companies (and Japanese) to farm out to cheap labor and get around tough local regulations on environment and such.. well, fast forward a bit, and I am VERY happy to see brands like Doge, Topping, Denafrips, and others being designed and engineered as well as "proudly" made in China... I can only hope those companies run their businesses with ethical practices, take care of their employees and the environment.. There was a time Japan (back in the 50's and 60's) was also the land of cheap labor, knock offs and poor quality.. The Chinese can evolve (assuming their government gets out of their way) and become a very respected force in technology and innovation, they already have begun this journey..

That said, the majority of made in China isn't for me, certainly not the clothing and electronics, mechanical purchases, etc .. sure, my MacBook Pro and iPhone are made in China, and I have no choice in this matter, although I'm glad to see Apple is at least "final assembly" on the MacPro in Austin TX... But for Hi-Fi, I'd rather buy a Sony or Yamaha that's actually made in Japan than Malaysia or China, because for me that simply smacks of greed, and a way to circumvent well paid labor, and possibly stronger environmental laws .. I also get it's about making stuff affordable to the average consumer, and that's a whole different rabbit hole of debate.

I spent a lot of time in China over the years, and witnessed first hand the working conditions at a couple of factories (one made computer hardware, cases, power supplies, etc), as well as how they dump into rivers almost without concern.. Things are no doubt changing, but for now I am proud and happy to own audio equipment that's mostly made in the US, UK and Japan... and in many cases, even the nuts and bolts of these components are being sourced locally...

It's not about being anti-Chinese, as I wish the best for those people, but for me it's about being pro-labor and a living wage, medial care, and a clean environment.

 

[StefaanE]

No it wasn't. You find me a single HiFi amplifer made in the 1970s-1980s where the full FTC rated power THD was 1%. Good luck. That's typical of numbers EU rated class Ds use in their data sheets in 2020.

0.1% THD was proudly stated at rated power in 1945 with the Harold Leak Point One, so named for its THD being less than 0.1% at full power. By the late 1970s, we had amplifiers with at least two leading zeroes after the decimal point.

I don't know if this qualifies, but back in 1973, Philips Germany sold a HiFi receiver, the RH720, with the attached spec sheet. As you can see, the distortion is quoted as <1% at full power (Sinusleistung). It's obviously a custom design with 73 transistors, 2 FETs, 42 diodes and 9 thyristors.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I don't know what you mean.

My original point in this thread is, and continues to be, that purchase decisions regarding reliability based on personal experience and maybe the anecdotal experience of a few other people, is itself an unreliable way to make decisions about product or brand reliability.

I think if one bothers you can get some useful info on reliability which isn't just anecdotal.

For automobiles look at independent garages. What brands are sitting around waiting to be repaired? Ask the people working on them, "what would you buy or what would you avoid?" You'll need to account a bit for popularity, but from what I see there is one most popular brand you don't see in for repair much and a couple of fairly popular brands that dominate the waiting area of repair shops. Various reliability rating services give you ratings which match what I see.

You can do the same on appliances. Most modern low water use washers are as a group very poor for reliability vs previous designs. And much more laden with electronics which complicate repair and increase the expense. Look at some repair and second hand appliance places. They'll tell you of certain older models they search for and they'll let you see the junk pile of things hardly worth bringing home. And this is the case almost regardless of how expensive some brands have become. Not that long ago any of your common brands would last 15 years or more, and right now that is not at all the case. Even then it might be a case of less than 2% giving trouble in 10 years vs a new norm where the number is 10%. If you are in the unlucky 10% that doesn't make you very happy.

 

[Wes]

Using appropriate sampling etc, or do they simply collect consumer complaints? I worked circa 20 years for one of the international statistical bodies in the data collection service, and never came across such data.

Yes, they employ statisticians. They don't talk about it much (due to the audience, no doubt) but read the reviews carefully and you'll get a glimpse of the machinery behind the reviews.

 

[raistlin65]

I think if one bothers you can get some useful info on reliability which isn't just anecdotal.

For automobiles look at independent garages. What brands are sitting around waiting to be repaired? Ask the people working on them, "what would you buy or what would you avoid?" You'll need to account a bit for popularity, but from what I see there is one most popular brand you don't see in for repair much and a couple of fairly popular brands that dominate the waiting area of repair shops. Various reliability rating services give you ratings which match what I see.

You can do the same on appliances. Most modern low water use washers are as a group very poor for reliability vs previous designs. And much more laden with electronics which complicate repair and increase the expense. Look at some repair and second hand appliance places. They'll tell you of certain older models they search for and they'll let you see the junk pile of things hardly worth bringing home. And this is the case almost regardless of how expensive some brands have become. Not that long ago any of your common brands would last 15 years or more, and right now that is not at all the case. Even then it might be a case of less than 2% giving trouble in 10 years vs a new norm where the number is 10%. If you are in the unlucky 10% that doesn't make you very happy.

I agree. There are ways to collect better evidence and use other information to make better judgments.

But that's not the limited evidence I was referring to. Rather, that was a repeat of my first post in this thread, in response to the first couple pages of this thread, where people were largely referencing their own experience and maybe people within their immediate circle.

Which I find interesting that an objectivist forum can understand how perceptual biases influence audio evaluation. But at the same time have a discussion about using extremely limited samples to make reliability judgments of a product model or brand.

 

[Wes]

If in doubt about reliability, take a look at the warranty.

 

[EJ3]

I don’t think that back in the 1970ies audio was a “solved” issue, given that the reference source was tape, and people were listening to LPs and FM radio.
Even very expensive amplifiers proudly announced 0.05% THD for 50 measly watts, and “full” power was often quoted at 1% THD. Maybe those distortion levels are “good enough”, and for sure, I never felt that the sound quality from my (cheap by my 1970/1990 norms) Yamaha RX-V667 7.1 receiver from 2011, was worse than the Technics SU-V50 “Class AA” from 1988 it replaced (I thought it was better, but never made a direct comparison ).
Perhaps check out AMIRM's test of my (made from 1985-1989 and was considered Mid-Fi at best) NAD 2200:
Lab Input Measurements
I was surprised that the frequency response was not flat but was relieved to see later in the thread that this is due to insertion of low and high pass filters. So here is the frequency response with Lab input that doesn't have such a filter:

Response now (in green) as it should be, ruler flat to below 10 Hz, and well extending past the 40 kHz limit of this measurement.

I figured the filters may be adding some noise/distortion so re-ran the dashboard again:

Distortion doesn't change but if you look at the noise floor at 20 Hz, it is down by some 10 dB. That improves SINAD a couple of dBs, making the amplifier stand out even more!

Zoomed:

And signal to noise ratio:

 

[Blumlein 88]

If in doubt about reliability, take a look at the warranty.

Won't work with LG. Warranty looks fine........until you try and use it.

 

[EJ3]

Sure. But the assessment that results from that is unreliable. Working with extremely small sample sets of data doesn't provide you enough information to make a determination with any degree of reliability.

So don't conflate the reliability of the data with the ability to take anything useful from it.

If I know 5 people that have them and they all have had 0 problems, for me that means that I am 50% likely to get a great one or 50% likely to get the worst one ever assembled.

 

[Wes]

Won't work with LG. Warranty looks fine........until you try and use it.

Predator-prey systems always involve a lot of evolution.

 

[M00ndancer]

I was planning to replace my Topping DX7 Pro with a Topping A90/D90 stack at $1,200. I have decided to spend more for peace of mind and warranty. I’m going to sell my preamplifier and purchase a Benchmark HPA4/DAC3 B stack for $4,800.

Adi-2 Pro FS?

Lucky for me then that I consider the RME ADI-2 Pro FS R Black Edition for $1695 good enough.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...view-and-measurements-of-benchmark-dac3.3545/

I cannot see point with any headphone AMP and DAC at that price ($4800), unless you get 25 years of warranty, and you can repair it, ergonomics or you really like the looks (No problem there.).
Warranty in the US:

The Benchmark Extended 5* Year Warranty

Benchmark Media Systems, Inc. optionally extends the standard one (1) year warranty to a period of five (5)* years from the date of delivery.
*For the extended warranty to become effective, the original purchaser must register the product at the time of purchase using the registration card, theonline registration page, or or by calling Benchmark's Customer Service department. This optional warranty applies only to products purchased within the US and Canada and is extended only to the original purchaser.

 

[restorer-john]

I remember many amps in the 80ies had a max power rating at 1% THD and a slightly lower typical power rating at much lower THD. At least here.

Is "here" in Europe? The DIN spec was/is 1% and consequently we had (and still have) the farcical situation where the same amplifier is rated with much more power and looser specifications in EU than the rest of the world. The biggest issues IMO were amplifiers that were poor performers to start with, got a free pass sitting under the 1% number.

I don't know if this qualifies, but back in 1973, Philips Germany

Absolutely it does qualify. So yes, there were 1% numbers in some markets. By 1974, when the FTC intervened, everything got tougher and specifications became honest for about 20-25years in HiFi (not consumer audio). Then came AVRs and honesty went out the window completely.

 

[M00ndancer]

My least reliable cameras were from Leica: M8, M9, 50/1.0 Noctilux, Trinovid binoculars. Who knew that CCD sensors could corrode? Factory can no longer provide critical parts for circa 2007 M8 (5000 USD) camera, or 2010 M9 cameras (7000 USD).

My Nikon D90 (70000 exposures on the shutter mechanism since 2011, all mine) 2008 ($850) with the excellent Nikon AF 180/f2.8 still works fine. (The 180 is about 30 years old and it was $900 brand new in 1987)

Making obvious that it's impossible for us that buy those products to know if they have quality issues or how long the spare parts will available.

 

[dougi]

My Nikon D90 (70000 exposures on the shutter mechanism since 2011, all mine) 2008 ($850) with the excellent Nikon AF 180/f2.8 still works fine. (The 180 is about 30 years old and it was $900 brand new in 1987)

Making obvious that it's impossible for us that buy those products to know if they have quality issues or how long the spare parts will available.

My M8 still seems OK, surprisingly. Prefer to use a Fuji X100 or x-pro series. Would really like a better M but prices are silly.

 

[maverickronin]

I don't know what you mean.

My original point in this thread is, and continues to be, that purchase decisions regarding reliability based on personal experience and maybe the anecdotal experience of a few other people, is itself an unreliable way to make decisions about product or brand reliability.

My point is that there's nothing wrong with just going with the anecdotes when that's the closest thing to real data which exists.

 

[Mike-48]

The bad side is our car industry. They squeeze out the last cent for the profit, the brand service centers do only exchange (very expensive) parts.

About 15 yr ago my wife and I bought a VW Passat. It was the nicest car we'd ever bought. It handled like a dream, held the road like a sports car, was really quiet in the cabin, extremely comfortable for my bad back, and it got reasonable (if not great) gas mileage.

The car had "rain sensing" wipers but when it rained harder, they went slower. It had a system of auto-adjusting mirrors and seats that took me a full day to get adjusted for myself; my wife never was able, and I was too fed up to help her much.

But worst of all, it was terribly unreliable. The air conditioning died 300 miles before the warranty ended -- thank goodness. The boots at the axle ends kept tearing (for no obvious reason), which was not noticeable but required immediate service, so as not to require replacement of the axles at great expense. The fourth time we replaced the boots, I also had the brake rotors machined and pads replaced. When I took the car back because the brakes were making noise, they told me the boots had torn again and got grease on the brakes. This car had a lot of advanced engineering, but none of it was in the name of reliability or durability. And man, were those parts expensive!

The day we sold it was a happy day. We've never had a comfortable, quiet car like that again, but we have NO regrets.

 

[RayDunzl]

My old 95 Maxima manual went 19 years on one headlight bulb, batteries, and tires.

I'd still have it but it got smushed.

Now I have a high-ish tech 2019 Camry and am holding my breath.