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Music is dead.

Blaspheme

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So, what I take from this thread:

Music appreciation is extremely subjective and personal - this especially stands out in an objective based forum. For many people (most?) musical preferences don't tend to change that much after their formative years. "Popular" music styles have changed greatly over the years. Distribution in the internet age has splintered styles into many factions and opened up an overwhelming amount of choice.
Nothing surprising there.

And also - there is a nearly endless amount of creative new music made by talented artists.

If it doesn't move you like your old favorites, that's not unusual, but that's on you, not the new music. Despite many passionately loved examples shared, nothing is going to ever be the next Nirvana or Radiohead for OP. So, up your music discovery game, or just accept you like what you like, and tell the damn kids to turn down that noise and get the hell off your lawn.

This horse is beaten to death. We should continue all these great suggestions into another thread about music we like (ie. "What we are listening to Now"), and not continue to try and convince OP that he is wrong. I would rather share my current music passions in a thread called "Music I Like" rather than "Music is Dead"
I pretty much agree with dkinric's summary (except that "music I like" didn't inspire me to post, I must prefer a challenge) which means we are basically done. We haven't done much (so-called) world music infused rap (or rap-infused worldbeat) so I'd better throw these in before the thread (as opposed to the music) dies:


There's a horse (not dead) in this one:


Apparently MIA got into music while making a doco on Elastica, which makes something like this obligatory:


Always good to see some naked flesh.

But PJ? Yes I'll agree with the OP there—absolutely non-fungible—her music was always man-sized (and my absolute favourite video from her):

 
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mononoaware

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For many listeners, all abstract electronic sounds alike due to unfamiliarity,

Yes I admit I find "Electronic" very foreign. I recently interacted with a user who liked electronic as well, in that comment I told them the closest I have is Walton - Black Lotus.

this one strikes me as expressionistic,

That particular track I like, I think it is the album intro or outro.
I find it transparent with artist as just the vessel/messenger.
Reminds me of Lars Von Trier’s film - Antichrist.

It's fairly common to be moved emotionally by the first two, and find the third cold or soulless.

Interesting so you are saying "Ikeda" is the most nihilistic? I admit I only listened to the first Ikeda video you posted.
I will listen again although it is was quite an intense experience, I would compare it to drinking carbonated-water it was bearable but very intense (at least it was with headphones).
Maybe your mind is more mathematical and can appreciate Ikeda. . .

while Ikeda takes an obviously structuralist approach (over-simplifying, of course).

Almost like Math-rock in a way? I find Math-rock to be tightly structured than other forms of rock, especially the drums.
Then the other instruments work with the drummer's structure, or disorder or "flow" -as with other forms of rock.
 
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Ron Party

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Glad to see southern rock isn't dead. Brand new Blackberry Smoke album featuring the great Warren Haynes on one track:

 

Blaspheme

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Sorry, I took a while to get back to this.

That particular track I like, I think it is the album intro or outro.
I find it transparent with artist as just the vessel/messenger.
Reminds me of Lars Von Trier’s film - Antichrist.
I hadn't come across that artist before—Android Lust being Shikhee D’iordna—so thank you. I'm liking what I've heard so far. Not as dark as Antichrist maybe? (You are making me feel nostalgic though, my youngest daughter loves Von Trier, also Michael Haneke, as much as I do ... fun family movie nights).

Interesting so you are saying "Ikeda" is the most nihilistic? I admit I only listened to the first Ikeda video you posted.
I will listen again although it is was quite an intense experience, I would compare it to drinking carbonated-water it was bearable but very intense (at least it was with headphones).
Maybe your mind is more mathematical and can appreciate Ikeda. . .
Interesting metaphor. Also, I much prefer sparkling water, so apt.

Almost like Math-rock in a way? I find Math-rock to be tightly structured than other forms of rock, especially the drums.
Then the other instruments work with the drummer's structure, or disorder or "flow" -as with other forms of rock.
Yes, I think so. It's interesting that some of the math-rock—like Covet—is also lyrical, while others—like Dillinger—are darkly expressionistic. To elaborate, I've used impressionist/expressionist/structuralist per their normal meanings in art history/theory. The last two are routinely applied to various media, the former to painting usually so I'm taking a bit of licence with the analogy.

So impressionism characteristically portrays overall effects instead of details, relaxes the boundary between subject and background, use asymmetrical and informal composition and so on. The effect is usually light, lyrical and captures ephemeral, incidental beauty in the fleeting moment. Nils Fram says "I’m interested in how human beings react in certain situations, and what music does to people’s emotions. How we can change people’s attitudes with tones. After I’ve played a good concert, people leave the room happy. This is something we can give back to the world. When people feel down and like it’s all going to shit, at least we can give them some music and change their attitude so people don’t think it’s all shit... That’s my religion." Not only impressionistic, but lyrical. His music reminds me of Manet, Monet, Degas, et al.

I don't have to stretch the analogy with expressionism, it is routinely applied to music (starting notably with Schoenberg) and avoids traditional forms of beauty to convey powerful feelings via dramatically increased dissonances. Contrasting with impressionism (and more so, lyricism) much of the harmonious, affirmative element of art is banished. Fear from the core of the psyche is brought into the open, demons confronted. Much of rock—familiar territory—and all of post-hardcore is expressionistic, along with a fair body of dissonant electronica.

Structuralism is interesting to me because it is less well known and understood. So it implies that elements of human culture may be understood by way of their relationship to broader systems. Ikeda is fascinated by both human and non-anthropogenic data streams and elaborates their structures in time and space. By my analysis his work precisely expresses Altisser's structuralist principles: a structure determines the position of each element of a whole; every system has a structure; structural laws deal with co-existence rather than change; and structures are the "real things" that lie beneath the surface or the appearance of meaning. I don't think Ikeda holds to the negative, abnegating aspects of nihilism, however. I think more transcendent than nihilistic, maybe.

I hope that was interesting, rather than tendentious. I'd naively expect participants in this forum to be fascinated/delighted by Ikeda's literal depictions of sound waves in physical space for example, but I'm expecting too much perhaps, the aesthetics are somewhat novel. I appreciate your thoughts after taking a look/listen.

PS: I haven't given much thought to who does post-structuralist electronic, or what it would sound like, open to suggestions :)
 
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MOCKBA

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Music ended with beginning 90' last century. It is known fact. It makes only more valuable ripping vinyl. Problem can be related that all valuable notes combinations already discovered.
 

mononoaware

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Sorry, I took a while to get back to this.


I hadn't come across that artist before—Android Lust being Shikhee D’iordna—so thank you. I'm liking what I've heard so far. Not as dark as Antichrist maybe? (You are making me feel nostalgic though, my youngest daughter loves Von Trier, also Michael Haneke, as much as I do ... fun family movie nights).


Interesting metaphor. Also, I much prefer sparkling water, so apt.


Yes, I think so. It's interesting that some of the math-rock—like Covet—is also lyrical, while others—like Dillinger—are darkly expressionistic. To elaborate, I've used impressionist/expressionist/structuralist per their normal meanings in art history/theory. The last two are routinely applied to various media, the former to painting usually so I'm taking a bit of licence with the analogy.

So impressionism characteristically portrays overall effects instead of details, relaxes the boundary between subject and background, use asymmetrical and informal composition and so on. The effect is usually light, lyrical and captures ephemeral, incidental beauty in the fleeting moment. Nils Fram says "I’m interested in how human beings react in certain situations, and what music does to people’s emotions. How we can change people’s attitudes with tones. After I’ve played a good concert, people leave the room happy. This is something we can give back to the world. When people feel down and like it’s all going to shit, at least we can give them some music and change their attitude so people don’t think it’s all shit... That’s my religion." Not only impressionistic, but lyrical. His music reminds me of Manet, Monet, Degas, et al.

I don't have to stretch the analogy with expressionism, it is routinely applied to music (starting notably with Schoenberg) and avoids traditional forms of beauty to convey powerful feelings via dramatically increased dissonances. Contrasting with impressionism (and more so, lyricism) much of the harmonious, affirmative element of art is banished. Fear from the core of the psyche is brought into the open, demons confronted. Much of rock—familiar territory—and all of post-hardcore is expressionistic, along with a fair body of dissonant electronica.

Structuralism is interesting to me because it is less well known and understood. So it implies that elements of human culture may be understood by way of their relationship to broader systems. Ikeda is fascinated by both human and non-anthropogenic data streams and elaborates their structures in time and space. By my analysis his work precisely expresses Altisser's structuralist principles: a structure determines the position of each element of a whole; every system has a structure; structural laws deal with co-existence rather than change; and structures are the "real things" that lie beneath the surface or the appearance of meaning. I don't think Ikeda holds to the negative, abnegating aspects of nihilism, however. I think more transcendent than nihilistic, maybe.

I hope that was interesting, rather than tendentious. I'd naively expect participants in this forum to be fascinated/delighted by Ikeda's literal depictions of sound waves in physical space for example, but I'm expecting too much perhaps, the aesthetics are somewhat novel. I appreciate your thoughts after taking a look/listen.

PS: I haven't given much thought to who does post-structuralist electronic, or what it would sound like, open to suggestions :)

Thank you.
I appreciate the great explanation.

While I find it hard to reply to it as a whole, I will refer back to and read your explanation many more times to further my understanding.

dissonances.

Interesting. I had a conversation recently discussing resonance, harmony and dissonance.

elements of human culture may be understood by way of their relationship to broader systems.

I regularly think about "broader systems". The true laws of nature, the invisible reality which is the movement/operation/structure of the universe.
If the human brain with it's limited capacity and processing could discover such an invisible reality (with the help of artificial intelligence), I assume it will be absolutely terrifying.
Death, existence/non-existence and infinity being such an overwhelming realization.
I like to care for the opening of such a wound by telling myself that it is often more simple than it seems.

and elaborates their structures in time and space. By my analysis his work precisely expresses Altisser's structuralist principles: a structure determines the position of each element of a whole; every system has a structure; structural laws deal with co-existence rather than change; and structures are the "real things" that lie beneath the surface or the appearance of meaning.

"structural laws deal with co-existence rather than change; and structures are the "real things" that lie beneath the surface or the appearance of meaning."

This is quite powerful.

I don't think Ikeda holds to the negative, abnegating aspects of nihilism, however. I think more transcendent than nihilistic, maybe.

I understand that most associate "nihilism" as being negative. But the way I understand it I find it to be neutral.
I find it a shame when nihilism is often feared and renounced. I consider just as important as other states of awareness.

Thanks for sharing that excerpt from Altisser's structuralist principles.
I will end it here since it is becoming off-topic.
 

Wes

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Well almost...
I can't help but feel that older music is just is so much better than all the new stuff being released today in all music genres.
There isn't one modern rock band that even comes close to Radiohead, Nirvana, PJ etc..
No artist that comes close to MJ
No new Bob Dylan, no new Jeff Buckley etc...
Well you get my point.
All new music and artists are just mediocre at best, except in some rare cases (Joanna Newsom, Regina spektor)
Does anyone here feels the same way?

I expect new Bob Dylans to come along at about the same frequency as new Shakespeares do.

Radiohead, Nirvana were not nearly as good as 1960s-70s music.
 

Brianc

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Check out the movie The Wrestler with Mickey Rourke. There's a scene where he and Marissa Tomei complain about the very bands you cite (Nirvana, Radiohead) for ruining rock music, for killing the party. "What happened to just having a good time?" one of them asks. Personally I hate 80s hair metal, which their characters love, but I think it's an interesting scene because their parents almost certainly hated Motley Crue, Poison, etc, but for different reasons.
 

Blaspheme

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I expect new Bob Dylans to come along at about the same frequency as new Shakespeares do.

Radiohead, Nirvana were not nearly as good as 1960s-70s music.
I agree with the first part, figuratively if not literally. Note that (in this thread I think, or the other one) I repeated the assessment that Lana Del Rey may turn out to be be the best American poet of the early 21st century—so there's something or you to work with. Radiohead are inarguably brilliant, so that comparison is way off. I kind of missed Nirvana's brief passage, probably during my child-raising years when we were too busy listening to The Wiggles (the first version of Smells Like Teen Spirit that I remember was the Tori Amos cover, which I must have heard later). I do appreciate them retrospectively, and also via Michael Pitt's inspired portrayal—and guitar playing—in Gus Van Sant's Last Days.
 
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Blaspheme

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Thank you.
I appreciate the great explanation.

While I find it hard to reply to it as a whole, I will refer back to and read your explanation many more times to further my understanding.



Interesting. I had a conversation recently discussing resonance, harmony and dissonance.



I regularly think about "broader systems". The true laws of nature, the invisible reality which is the movement/operation/structure of the universe.
If the human brain with it's limited capacity and processing could discover such an invisible reality (with the help of artificial intelligence), I assume it will be absolutely terrifying.
Death, existence/non-existence and infinity being such an overwhelming realization.
I like to care for the opening of such a wound by telling myself that it is often more simple than it seems.



"structural laws deal with co-existence rather than change; and structures are the "real things" that lie beneath the surface or the appearance of meaning."

This is quite powerful.



I understand that most associate "nihilism" as being negative. But the way I understand it I find it to be neutral.
I find it a shame when nihilism is often feared and renounced. I consider just as important as other states of awareness.

Thanks for sharing that excerpt from Altisser's structuralist principles.
I will end it here since it is becoming off-topic.
Just briefly, I'm glad you were interested. You are correct about nihilism I think.
 

Nicolaas

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Well almost...
I can't help but feel that older music is just is so much better than all the new stuff being released today in all music genres.
There isn't one modern rock band that even comes close to Radiohead, Nirvana, PJ etc..
No artist that comes close to MJ
No new Bob Dylan, no new Jeff Buckley etc...
Well you get my point.
All new music and artists are just mediocre at best, except in some rare cases (Joanna Newsom, Regina spektor)
Does anyone here feels the same way?
Maybe you are in the wrong bubble. There is so much great new music especially in the folk, blues, jazz and world genres. I like some classical music too but most classical music is very well known and therefore boring to me. Pop is hit or miss and hiphop is mostly boring. But I love the Guru albums. However as a 71 year old boomer I hardly ever listen to old well known music. Every week there are numerous new albums to explore and after the first 2 tracks I know whether it's top or flop. And if the recording is bad it is definitely not for me....Of course one should also try music from other countries than USA and GB!
 
OP
Pearljam5000

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I agree with the first part, figuratively if not literally. Note that (in this thread I think, or the other one) I repeated the assessment that Lana Del Rey may turn out to be be the best American poet of the early 21st century—so there's something or you to work with. Radiohead are inarguably brilliant, so that comparison is way off. I kind of missed Nirvana's brief passage, probably during my child-raising years when we were too busy listening to The Wiggles (the first version of Smells Like Teen Spirit that I remember was the Tori Amos cover, which I must have heard later). I do appreciate them retrospectively, and also via Michael Pitt's inspired portrayal—and guitar playing—in Gus Van Sant's Last Days.
Joanna Newsom is the best poet:cool:
 

Soniclife

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dkinric

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Check out the movie The Wrestler with Mickey Rourke. There's a scene where he and Marissa Tomei complain about the very bands you cite (Nirvana, Radiohead) for ruining rock music, for killing the party. "What happened to just having a good time?" one of them asks. Personally I hate 80s hair metal, which their characters love, but I think it's an interesting scene because their parents almost certainly hated Motley Crue, Poison, etc, but for different reasons.
This is an interesting point I’ve been thinking about as to why Nirvana is mentioned as an all time great band. I was in college when Teen Spirit broke, and it truly was a watershed moment. Not because they were the greatest band ever, but because their breakthrough to the mainstream changed the course of music. You have to understand where we were at the time. FM Radio and MTV defined what was popular, and at the time it was mostly hair bands and groups like Milli Vanilli, C and C Music Factory, etc. The rock genre was dying. Sure, being in a college town gave me some exposure to modern progressive, but it was dwarfed by other popular music.

The sudden and enormous success of Nirvana changed all of that. It opened up the door to the Seattle scene, so Peal Jam, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains etc. were all exploding. All of a sudden rock was popular again. Real rock music was now on MTV and FM along with Janet Jackson type dance music. Remember this was well before you could stream anything you wanted. You either listened to the radio/MTV or bought a CD ($16 in 90's dollars). So, moving those popular needles was huge in affecting what you could listen to.

Rockers rejoiced! The loud distorted guitar was back! It was a great time for new rock music styles. So, next time you kids (hey! Get off my lawn!) roll your eyes at another Nirvana mention with their screechy dead singer and limited catalog, realize they are (unintentionally) a big reason why we have the music we do today.

How is this relevant? Although I think there is great new music being made out there, it is unlikely to have the same cultural impact that Nirvana or The Beatles or Hendrix had. Because they did something that is much more difficult to do today - change the course of popular rock music. I think this has much more bearing on people’s deference to their old favorites than the music itself. It’s tied to a moment, a part of our cultural history.
 
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Blaspheme

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Try this :
Thanks for that. She is an unusual talent. It will take a bit more time to get what I think of her as a poet, her style is more verbose and somewhat of-a-period. I didn't realise she was the narrator on Inherent Vice, I'll have to re-watch.
 
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