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Multi-Channel, Multi-Amplifier Audio System Using Software Crossover and Multichannel-DAC

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dualazmak

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Thread Starter #161
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Thread Starter #162
Use DAC8PRO's Headphone Output for RCA Unbalanced Input to Sub-Woofer YAMAHA YST-SW1000

As I posted and showed repeatedly, my current multi-channel project is stereo 5-way 10-channel including the active sub-woofer YAMAHA YST-SW1000 (L and R) each of which has preferred unbalanced line level RCA input and also speaker-level input.

DAC8PRO is 8-channel DAC, and I definitely would like to drive my Woofers (WO), Squawkers (SQ), Tweeters (TW) and Super Tweeters (TW) by separate amplifiers, i.e. 4 of stereo amps or 8 of mono amps, using all of the 8 channels of DAC8PRO.

SW YST-SW1000 (48 kg each, 30 cm unit, 580W x 440H x 440D mm) has variable hi-cut filter (24 dB/Oct, 30 - 130 Hz), powerful amplifier (120W, 5 Ohm), phase inversion switch and volume controller, all can be controlled by IR remote controller.

YST-SW1000 has two input terminals, i.e. unbalanced line level RCA input and speaker-level input;
WS000579.JPG


Since YST-SW1000 has dedicated powerful amplifier in it, I prefer the RCA line-level input, not the the speaker-level input.

Until today, however, I have been planning to connect to YST-SW1000 by speaker-level branching from NS-1000's WO terminal, because all of the line-level 8 channels from DAC8PRO should go into amplifiers driving SW+WO, SQ, TW and ST; in this case we have no choice of line-level synchronized input into SW, I have been thinking so.

Today, when I was looking at the nice face of DAC8PRO, I suddenly noticed "Oh, I have headphone output in the front panel of DAC8PRO, which always gives channel-1 and channel-2 output, and of course covered by the master volume and gain controller!!";

In DAC8PRO's Owners Manual, we can read;
Analog connectivity
Main outputs (back side)

8 x Neutrik gold-plated XLR connector
Output level: 4.1 V RMS differential full-scale
output impedance: 200 Ohms
Headphone output (front side)
6.3 mm (1/4”) TRS connector
Output level: 4.1 V RMS full-scale
120 mA linear output current
fixed to output channels 1 and 2
output impedance <100 mOhm


Well, this headphone output is just perfect for the line-level input into SW YST-SW1000 (L and R) by using a simple "TRS to two female RCA (L&R) adapter" which I have some in my cable/adapter box. I quickly tested this, and of course it worked perfectly!
WS000627.JPG


Consequently, the entire schematic diagram of my multi-channel system after the arrival of multi-channel amplifier(s) is;
WS000580.JPG


and I am very happy now having the line-level input into L and R SWs, and all the SPs are under the control of DAC8PRO's master volume controller (and 8-channel gain controller). The relative volume (gain) of SW YST-SW1000 should be adjusted and fixed so afterwords.

The first-to-try EKIO's Inputs/Outputs and Routing configurations mimic attenuator settings are;
WS000581.JPG


I am very much pleased that I can use the excellent headphone output (CH-1 and CH-2) of DAC8PRO into active Sub-Woofers (SW).
 

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Today, when I was looking at the nice face of DAC8PRO, I suddenly noticed "Oh, I have headphone output in the front panel of DAC8PRO, which always gives channel-1 and channel-2 output, and of course covered by the master volume and gain controller!!";
Cool.
 
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Thread Starter #164
Hello Nabussan and friends,

As you may aware, I am in the process (on the step) of investigation, search, trials and decision of multi-channel amplifier(s) for my multi-channel project.

Does any one here have experience with YAMAHA MX-A5200, AVENTAGE 11-channel power amplifier?
This is not a modern D-class amplifier, but is a conventional big troidal-capacitor type amp, with acceptable catalog spec of S/N >116 dB.
>The MX-A5200 utilises a high-output, large toroidal transformer combined with 2 specially developed high-capacity block capacitors to deliver massive power with generous headroom.
https://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/audio_visual/av_receivers_amps/mx-a5200/index.html
WS000588.JPG

Of course, here in Japan, domestic model of MX-A5200 for AC 100V 50/60 Hz is available with good guarantee and services.
 
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Thread Starter #165
As for some measurments of YAMAHA MX-A5200, I found this;

Your opinion and/or comments will be much appreciated.
 
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Thread Starter #166
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Thread Starter #167
YAMAHA MX-A5200 has CH-3+CH-4 bridge mode, and looks I can use it for driving WOs (woofers), so I may connect SPs like;

CH-3+CH-4 (bridged) L&R for WOs (woofers)
CH-2 L&R for SQs (squawkers)
CH-5 L&R for TWs (tweeters)
CH-6 L&R for STs (super tweeters)

Is this OK?

WS000590.JPG
 
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Thread Starter #168
Hello friends,

I also found this web page describing the improvements in YAMAHA MX-A5200 from its older one MX-A5000.
https://www.phileweb.com/news/d-av/201809/05/44960.html

I hope your web browser would properly translate this Japanese page into English.
Attached PDF is the AI English translation given by my browser, Google Chrome; sorry but I did not fully edited/corrected the English in the PDF.

I have not yet decided the first choice(s) of multi-channel amplifier(s), but I would like to just test/try YAMAHA MX-A5200 in my project; I am now communicating with YAMAHA and some dealers for the possibility of trial with MX-A5200 at my home in this project....
 

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Thread Starter #169
Hello Nabussan and friends,

In my post #104, I said that I will test two of DENTEC DP-NC400-4 (XLR inputs) in late June. The president of DENTEC (Sound DEN) just kindly contacted informing a slight delay in their "production" of two DP-NC400-4 for my free trial, and they will bring them to my home hopefully on July 18 after enough burn-in for more than two weeks. I of course accepted it and told him that I will also fully burn-in all the 8 channels of my DAC8PRO until July 18.
 
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Hi Dualazmak,

I might be misinterpreting the measurements, but as per the "distortion analysis" under https://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/yamaha-cx-a5200-mx-a5200/conclusion , the MX-A5200 seems not to be much better, if at all, than the Pascal S-Pro2-based amps that are much cheaper and have more power.

So, in terms of price/performance, I'd prefer 2x IMG 2000Ds (which allow you to optimize the signal-noise ratio with the clipping LEDs and pots), while in terms of "price/perfection", I'd prefer 4 x VTV Purifi (which seems to be about 30% more than the price of the MX-A5200) see https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ic-shootout-€820-to-€8-344.14048/#post-428776).

In terms of aesthetics, I think the cases are equally ugly. So alternatively you could go for the Purifi Eval boards and have some additional DIY fun (though it doesn't save money).

if you buy 4 stereo modules, you get a 10% discount (https://purifi-audio.com/vare/eval1/).

For a dozen years or so I had Rogers LS3/5a speakers and a Radford tube amp (now both sold to a British Audio enthusiast in China). The Radford was basically a wooden plate to install the components on, and a perforated plate covering.

1592135219735.png

Nothing you couldn’t easily imitate and adapt to house those digital amp modules. Holes are easy to be drilled in a wooden box, aluminum is easily cut and bent. I don’t know about steel (if you think you need magnetic shielding). You would just need some screws and perhaps spacers to mount the cover. You could apply any degree of Japanese woodworking sophistication.

Anyway, with regards to the Purifi amps, allow me to remind you of Oscar Wilde's wisdom: "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it."
 
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Thread Starter #171
Hello Nabussan,

Thank you for your nice comments and suggestions.

>Anyway, with regards to the Purifi amps, allow me to remind you of Oscar Wilde's wisdom: "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it."

Yes, I fully agree with you. The four (4) units of Apllon Purifi 1ET400A are still sitting on the top of my candidate list!

Before to make my final decision, however, I would like to try conventional non-digital amps like YAMAHA MX-A5200, and also like to try digital amps like DP-NC400-4 as a representative of Hypex and Purifi digital amp modules.

In case if I would really prefer DP-NC400-4 over MX-A5200, then I should move forward into focusing on the comparison of Hypex and Purifi.

One of the main reasons for my possible trials with MX-A5200 is its CH3+CH4 BTL (Bridge) mode to drive woofers with rather favorable low distortion value up to 200 W level. This BTL push-pull driving of woofers should give high-speed and clear low sound in comparison with the normal single amp operation sound.

In my home audio settings/environment, I believe that woofers and squawkers seldom go up to 100 W level, and tweeters and super tweeters also seldom go over 30 W level. MX-A5200's distortion values in these power levels look well acceptable, right? Of course I well recognize the importance of "power reserve/margin" in SP driving, though...

I have been using ACCUPHASE E-460, and I very much like the rather mild (and slightly warm) sound characteristics, especially for piano sound, which is always the reference sound in this project. As you may aware, I will fully preserve the E-460+LC Network system for DSD native streaming listening without using the crossover settings. I have a little bit concern, therefore, that the possible jumping into full digital amp system may give too much drastic change of total sound characteristics even if the objective measurement values would be much more favorable for the digital system. This is always a kind of dilemma for me, but I need to make decision.

In any way, with your nice suggestions in my mind, I will carefully test several multi-channel amplifier(s) in my mutli-channel project before making my final decision.

Or, it may be possible and worthwhile to have one MX-A5200 as the "base amp system" in my project, and then I may further explore the adventure of searching my ultimate multi-channel amplifier(s); we know well that Hypex as well as Purifi are still intensively developing and improving their digital amp modules, and some new companies may participate in the innovation competitions.
 
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Thread Starter #172
Hello Nabussan and friends,

YAMAHA and one of the dealers in Tokyo have kindly accepted my request! One YAMAHA MX-A5200 will be delivered to my home hopefully on June 20, for my free trials in about one week period.
 
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Thread Starter #175
Trial and conclusion with YAMAHA MX-A5200 11-Ch multichannel Amplifier

One YAMAHA MX-A5200 11-Ch multichannel amplifier arrived yesterday for my free trials.
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/av_receivers_amps/mx-a5200_u/index.html
https://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/yamaha-cx-a5200-mx-a5200
https://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/yamaha-cx-a5200-mx-a5200/conclusion

My Conclusions on MX-A5200 at least in This Project:
Even though MX-A5200 functionally works perfectly in my project, from Total Sound Quality (SQ) point of view, I found that MX-A5200 is a little bit inferior, with my ears, to my Reference Sound system (EKIO - DAC8PRO - ACCUPHASE E460 - renovated LC-Network - NS-1000+YST-SW1000+T925A); I decided consequently, not to use/choose YAMAHA MX-A5200 in my project.
(If I do not have the Reference Sound system, it might be highly possible to decide to use YAMAHA MX-A5200.)

The important lessons I learned:
1. I could reconfirm the superiority, in all aspects of Sound Quality, of my Reference Sound system mainly thanks to the very nice ACCUPHASE E460, and also thanks to the fully renovated LC-network, still excellent YAMAHA-NS1000's WO, SQ and TW, together with SW YST-SW1000 and ST FOSTEX T925A.


2. I should be very much careful enough in deciding the possible multichannel amplifier(s) in my project. The total Sound Quality and power of such multichannel amplifier(s) should be about the same or superior to ACCUPHASE E-460.

Before to report details of my trial with MX-A5200, let me show again about my current Reference Sound system with single amplifier ACCUPHASE E-460 and active sub-woofer YAMAHA YST-SW1000.
WS000647.JPG


WS000651.JPG


For comparison with the sound using MX-A5200 in multi-channel operation, I use EKIO crossover configuration also in this Reference Sound system as follows;
WS000628.JPG


WS000646.JPG


WS000633.JPG


WS000634.JPG


YAMAHA MX-A5200 (Silver) arrived for my free trial;
WS000640.JPG


WS000641.JPG



WS000642.JPG


I changed the SP cabling at the SP Cabling Board for driving with multichannel amplifier MX-A5200;
WS000639.JPG


Then connected everything to MX-A5200 as;
WS000649.JPG

and;
WS000653.JPG


WS000581.JPG


The total trial system scheme was;

WS000635.JPG


Please note that I operated MX-A5200's CH3+CH4 in BTL (Brigde) mode driving WOs.

This setting, as expected, worked perfectly driving all the SP 10 units by each individual dedicated amplifier, and I did intensive listening sessions using my audio sampler tracks and Super Audio Check CD tracks.

I found, rather disappointedly, almost all of the SQ (Sound Quality) elements were a little bit inferior, with my ears, to my Reference Sound. Only the "speed" of WO sound was a little bit better maybe due to the effective push-pull drive by the BTLed amp, but the cleanliness of the WO sound was considerably better in Reference Sound. I will not go into the detailed subjective impression of the "inferior" sound quality which many of you can image it well. If I do not have the Reference Sound system, it might be highly possible to decide to use YAMAHA MX-A5200.

Of course, I tried intensive fine tuning of EKIO's gain, filter slope, phase and delay tuning configurations, but none of them improved the total SQ. Having these ear listening findings, I was reluctant to perform any objective measurement using MX-A5200.

As you may aware, YAMAHA NS-1000's Beryllium Dome Squawker (Be-SQ) is a very nice mid-range unit having none or minimal distortion and covering rather wide Fq range of 600 - 6,000 Hz. I tried, therefore, to drove "Be-SQs only" by my ACCUPHASE E-460 as shown below;

WS000637.JPG


As expected, only the squawkers gave nice clean and hi-res sound, but the total Sound Quality with other SPs driven by MX-A5200 was still a little bit inferior to my Reference Sound with my ears. Again, if I do not have the Reference Sound system, it might be highly possible to decide to use YAMAHA MX-A5200.

After these rather intensive listening sessions and trials with MX-A5200, I removed it form the system, and put everything back into my Reference Sound system;
WS000647.JPG


WS000638.JPG



My Conclusions on MX-A5200 at least in This Project:
Even though MX-A5200 functionally works perfectly in my project, from Total Sound Quality (SQ) point of view, I found that MX-A5200 is a little bit inferior, with my ears, to my Reference Sound system (EKIO - DAC8PRO - ACCUPHASE E460 - renovated LC-Network - NS-1000+YST-SW1000+T925A); I decided consequently, not to use/choose YAMAHA MX-A5200 in my project.
(If I do not have the Reference Sound system, it might be highly possible to decide to use YAMAHA MX-A5200.)

The important lessons I learned:
1. I could reconfirm the superiority, in all aspects of Sound Quality, of my Reference Sound system mainly thanks to the very nice ACCUPHASE E460, and also thanks to the fully renovated LC-network, still excellent YAMAHA-NS1000's WO, SQ and TW, together with SW YST-SW1000 and ST FOSTEX T925A.


2. I should be very much careful enough in deciding the possible multichannel amplifier(s) in my project. The total Sound Quality and power of such multichannel amplifier(s) should be about the same or superior to ACCUPHASE E-460.

I am very much looking forward to testing (for free) two of DENTEC DP-NC400-4, Hypex NC400 based 4-Ch heavy duty amplifier, scheduled in late July.
 
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Thread Starter #176
Hi Dualazmak,
I came across this. If you haven't seen it yet, it might be of interest to you.

Regards, Kees

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Yamaha-NS1000.htm
Hello Kees,

Thank you for the link. Yes, I have been aware of it, and it greatly encouraged me to renovate the LC-network of my NS-1000, moved everything including the attenuators into outer LC-network box, changed all the coils and capacitors to brand new ones, and attenuators were completely overhauled. The total sound quality improvements were just amazing. I believe to move these out of the SP cabinet also would really contribute the improvements.
 
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Great thread! Don't believe I'll ever take my multich rig to this level but never say never, you never know. LOL
This thread should be enlightening and educational for our member's and also bring in some feedback for you.
Good luck on the journey!
Sal
Little did I know , how relevant this thread could be to me too :D! eading it with attention and will ask questions .. hope the OP still is into posting mode.
 
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Thread Starter #178
Little did I know , how relevant this thread could be to me too :D! eading it with attention and will ask questions .. hope the OP still is into posting mode.
Hello FranzM,

Thank you for your kind visit and attention on this thread.

I just quickly visited your new thread; I fully agree with you that YAMAHA NS-1000 (and NS-1000M) are really, amazingly wonderful speaker. I am still using my renovated (all the new LC-network and attenuators in outer network box) NS-1000 together with YAMAHA YST-SW1000 sub-woofer and FOSTEX T925A horn super tweeter in my current multichannel project.

As you may aware, I could already build, step-by-step, my Hi-Fi audio-only (not Audio-Visual) multichannel system with software crossover EKIO and DAC8PRO, and confirmed the crossover functionality and configurations of EKIO receiving 192kHz 24bit signal from JRiver or Roon through ASIO4ALL and providing 8-channel cross-overed sound into DAC8PRO via ASIO4ALL plus the dedicated DIYNHK USB ASIO driver of DAC8PRO.

Now I am on the final step, just before my first goal, of deciding multichannel amplifier(s) in my project. The investigation, trials, evaluations and decision on multichannel amplifier(s) should need very careful listening sessions and measurement (if possible) at my home with my actual multichannel system as I reported in my recent post #175.

The choice and selection process of multichannel amplifier(s), including Hypex or Purifi D-amps, several other solid state Hi-Fi power amps, however, will take several months or even a year; my posting frequency, therefore, is a little bit slow down now, but I am surely still in posting mode. I also would like to try and evaluate some Hi-Fi tube amps especially for squawkers, tweeters and super tweeters in my project before to fully decide all of the possible amplifier(s).

I would highly appreciate any discussion and suggestions not only on the selection of amplifier(s) but also discussion on any of the items I described in my first post which can be read;

In this new thread entitled "Multi-Channel, Multi-Amplifier Audio System Using Software Crossover and Multichannel-DAC", I would like to share and discuss any topic related to "software crossover" plus "multichannel-DAC" based multi-channel, multi-amplifier audio system.

Since I already found and confirmed that several "software crossover" solutions are also very much interesting and useful even for single DAC plus single amplifier system driving speaker units through LC (coils and capacitors) crossover network, any topic or discussion on "software crossover" for "single-DAC plus single amplifier" will be very much welcome.

Edited to add on April 28, 2020:
In this thread, I also would like to share and discuss these major issues always associating with Multi-Channel, Multi-Amplifier Audio System;
- Digital I/O for software crossover within PC
- Delay, latency and synchronization issues
- Phase issues
- Master volume and gain issues
As you may well aware, these issues are somewhat interdependent with each other.


You are very much welcome joining here for discussion and info exchange on these topics...

P.S.
I just visited your new thread, and placed two short posts.
 
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Très intéressant le haut-parleur Yamaha NS-1000 est le mode actif:)

J'utilise pour mon Monitoring Studio un Yamaha NS-1000x avec processeur FIR QSC 100f actif (mais le tweater est un tweater FOCAL Beryllium français)

C'est la première fois que o_O je vois une autre Yamaha NS-1000 avec un filtre actif
 
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Thread Starter #180
Very interesting the Yamaha NS-1000 loudspeaker is active mode:)
I use for my Monitoring Studio a Yamaha NS-1000x with active FIR QSC 100f processor (but the tweater is a French FOCAL Berrylium tweater)
It's the first time o_O I see an another Yamaha NS-1000 with an active filter
Hello and welcome, Igor,

I am still very much fascinating with NS-1000; really wonderful and amazing speaker.

Last summer, I took all the LC-network and attenuators out of the NS-1000's cabinet and put them into outer network box with all brand new coils and capacitors, all the attenuators were fully overhauled. The improvement of the total sound quality was surprisingly obvious. That successful renovation strongly encouraged me to move forward into this multi-channel project.

I am excited about and really enjoying the step-by-step progress in this project, with nice software crossover EKIO (IIR second order transposed direct form II biquad filters, all in 192kHz 24bit, internal processing is in 64bit floating point) and wonderful 8-channel DAC OKTO DA8PRO. My happy encounter with EKIO and DAC8PRO actually made this project in reality.

As you may find in the schematic diagram in my first post, however, I am also preserving the "single DAC-single amp-LC network-SPs" system for occasional native bit-perfect streaming listening to DSD tracks; the OPPO Sonica DAC can go up to 8xDSD (DSD512, 22.6MHz) or PCM 768kHz 32bit.

I hope you could have your relaxed time to read through this thread, and I am very much looking forward to having mutually valuable, enjoyable discussion and info exchange with you and other people visiting here.
 
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