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Multi-Channel, Multi-Amplifier Audio System Using Software Crossover and Multichannel-DAC

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dualazmak

dualazmak

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Frequency Response Measurements in Digital Level, in DAC8PRO's Analog Output Level and in Amplifier's Output Level

Note: I am an end user audio enthusiast and I have no conflict of interest at all with any of the manufacturers, import companies, distributors and audio shops relevant to this post. This post is not intending to intensively share objective and/or subjective evaluations of the candidate amplifiers, but I would like to share about how I would test and try candidate amplifiers in this project.

Hello friends,

As shared in my post #311, my (provisionally) completed multichannel multi-amplifier system can be summarized in these four diagrams;
WS001402.JPG

For the details of these diagrams, you would please visit my post #311 where you can find the larger ones.

In my post #318, I also shared the "L + R Frequency Response at Usual Listening Position in the Listening Room and Environments" as shown here again;
WS001403.JPG


Even though I have rather little interest in Fq response curves at very near (1 m?) from the SP drivers, I am always curious about Fq responses in the digital level (after crossover) signal, in DAC8PRO's analog line level output, and also in amplifier's output level to see and confirm that the EKIO's crossover configurations would be properly reflected in these signal levels.

Using the software crossover EKIO's very flexible I/O routing and REW's flexible ASIO I/O configuration, I could easily measure the Fq responses in these signal levels.

I first measured the digital level Fq responses, after EKIO's DSP-EQ processing, by looping-back the DIYINHK ASIO digital signals into REW within the PC;
WS001404.JPG


It is very nice to see and confirm that the EKIO's crossover configurations are properly reflected in the digital level signals as well as the cleanliness of the signals.

Next, I measured the analog output channels of DAC8PRO by looping-back the line level signals into PC's Realtek HD Audio's line-in for REW's "measurement";
WS001405.JPG


Please note that the on-board "line-in" of Realtek-HD Audio in the PC's motherboard would not be a high-end Hi-Fi device (as you can see the noise floor level), but I tentatively used this loop-back for simplicity and convenience.

Finally, I also measured the line-level output signals from the three amplifiers, i.e. YAMAHA A-S3000 to drive woofers, ACCUPHASE E-460 to drive Be-squawkers, and SONY TA-A1ES to drive Be-tweeters and super tweeters;
WS001407.JPG


I hope that these digital level and line level Fq response measurements would be also of your interests and reference in this type of multichannel multi-amplifier project with digital software crossover solutions.
 
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dualazmak

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Startup (Ignition) Sequence and Shutdown Sequence of the Multichannel Multi-amplifier System

Note: I am an end user audio enthusiast and I have no conflict of interest at all with any of the manufacturers, import companies, distributors and audio shops relevant to this post. This post is not intending to intensively share objective and/or subjective evaluations of the candidate amplifiers, but I would like to share about how I would test and try candidate amplifiers in this project.

Hello friends,

One of my dear ASR friends PMed me asking about my standard startup (ignition) sequence and shutdown sequence of the multichannel multi-amplifier system together with software crossover EKIO running on Windows 10 PC.

He is a lillte bit concerned about the maximum protection of speaker drivers from possible unexpected accidental pop damage, and I fully understand his worries.

Even though I daily perform these very familiar sequences almost unconsciously, I believe it should be worthwhile to share the sequences with all of you visiting this thread.

As shared in my post #311, my (provisionally) completed multichannel multi-amplifier system can be summarized in these four diagrams;
WS001402.JPG

(For the details of these diagrams, you would please visit my post #311 where you can find the larger ones.)

The L & R sub-woofers YAMAHA YST-SW1000 are now usually fed with the RCA unbalanced input from DAC8PRO's "headphone out" (CH1 & CH2) which is under its volume/gain control, as I shared here in my post #162.

I believe it would be better firstly to share the standard "Shutdown Sequence" as follows;

Standard "Shutdown Sequence":
01. Stop playing JRiver MC (or Roon)
02. Volume-down the "Master Volume" of JRiver to less than 5% (-77.5 dB)
03. Stop playing software crossover EKIO
04. Volume-down OKTO DAC8PRO to less than -75 dB
05. Volume-down SONY TA-A1ES to -infinity dB (no sound)
06. Volume-down ACCUPHASE E-460 to -infinity dB (no sound)
07. Volume-down YAMAHA A-S3000 to -infinity dB (no sound)
08. Power-off A-S3000
09. Power-off E-460
10. Power-off TA-A1ES
11. Power-off L and R active sub-woofers YAMAHA YST-SW1000 by remote controller
12. Exit/Shutdown EKIO
13. Exit/Shutdown JRiver MC
14. Shutdown Windows 10 PC with the shift-key pressed (hard shutdown)
15. Soft-shutdown (Mute-off) DAC8PRO by remote controller
16. Down the AC Circuit Breaker (if needed for long shutdown; longer than a week or so)


The standard "Startup (Ignition) Sequence" is as follows;

standard "Startup (Ignition) Sequence":
01. Wake-up the AC Circuit Breaker (if it has been shut down)
02. Power-on YAMAHA A-S3000; make sure the volume is at -infinity dB (no sound)
03. Power-on ACCUPHASE E-460; make sure the volume is at -infinity dB (no sound)
04. Power-on SONY TA-A1ES; make sure the volume is at -infinity dB (no sound)
05. Power-on L&R sub-woofers YAMAHA YST-SW1000 by remote controller (preset volume 14:00 o'clock)
06. Power-on OKTO DAC8PRO; make sure the volume is less than -75 dB
07. Power-on Windows 10 PC
08. Check & confirm wake-up and running of ASIO BRIDGE at taskbar
09. Check & confirm wake-up and ready of DIYINHK ASIO at taskbar
10. Check & confirm all of the Window's sound I/Os (KERNEL, WASAPI, WMD, Mic, etc.) are muted-off
11. Launch JRiver MC (or Roon); make sure the master volume is at about 5 % (-77.5 dB)
12. Start playing JRiver the first track of my music sampler playlist (harp solo)
13. Slightly volume-up JRiver to around 10 % (-55.0 dB); check the JRiver's small VU-EQ meter is moving
14. Launch software crossover EKIO
15. Open/load the EKIO's standard configuration file into EKIO
16. Start playing EKIO
17. Check and confirm all of the EKIO's I/O VU meter bars are properly moving in small volume
18. Volume-up TA-A1ES to -16 dB
19. Volume-up A-S3000 to 11:55 o'clock (-18 dB)
20. Volume-up E-460 to -18.0 dB
21. Volume-up DAC8PRO to -4 dB; check to properly hear the sound in very small volume
22. Carefully and slowly volume-up JRiver MC (as master volume) to usual listening volume

Although these may look somewhat complicated at your first glance, I usually complete the shutdown sequence in less than one minute, and complete the startup (ignition) sequence in less that two minutes...
 
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Lbstyling

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Can you show the off axis measurements? (Horizontal and vertical)

Thanks.
 
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Can you show the off axis measurements? (Horizontal and vertical)
Thanks.

I am sorry, but I have no further intention nor plan to measure frequency response (SPL) including off axis measurements since;

1. I do not like to be objective measurement addict,

2. I am only interested in L+R frequency response at usual listening position in the listening room and environments,

3. The purpose of my above measurements is just to see and confirm somewhat objectively after my ear-listening fine tuning of the total system,

4. Fq response (SPL) is just only one of the various factors affecting the total sound quality (musicality),

5. My SP alignment is rather wide-spread with the cabinet of NS-1000 plus super tweeters and sub-woofers, and the off axis measurements would be very much complicated and time consuming,

6. As wrote in my post #318, I have almost no interest in frequency response at very near (1 m?) from the SP drivers,

7. Because of my further overwhelming missions related to COVID19 pandemic and vaccination, I can find little time to perform further objective measurements for a while.

WS001336.JPG


As for the very unique positioning of the super tweeters FOSTEX TA925A under the woofers, please refer to my specific post.

Your kind understanding will be highly appreciated.
 
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thewas

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1. I do not like to be objective measurement addict,
Still you post many measurements and diagrams about everything else. ;)

2. I am only interested in L+R frequency response at usual listening position in the listening room and environments,
Which is a big mistake as anechoic measurements from many angles tell a lot more about the sound quality than a wild mix of them at the listening position and show also the problems of your "70s approach" with non matched to the driver crossovers and low placed super tweeter and just adjusting them at the LP.

4. Fq response (SPL) is just only one of the various factors affecting the total sound quality (musicality),
If measured just at the LP unfortunately yes, they don't tell much but nevertheless still more than your thought "amplifier sound".

5. My SP alignment is rather wide-spread with the cabinet of NS-1000 plus super tweeters and sub-woofers, and the off axis measurements would be very much complicated and time consuming,
You have posted already 17 pages of lovely and laborious and even ignition sequences :D here which take much much more time than an hour needed for some windowed measurements at 0°, 15°, 30°, 45, 60° 90° at 4 directions and which would possibly make you understand and tune your great hardware quite better.

I apologise that I sound so direct but we are in ASR and you have so great hardware that I find it always sad to see it being used significantly under its possibilities as you seem to spend more time on not expedient "audiophile" aspects and I took now the courage to tell you my honest opinion, hope you don't take it personally as I don't want to criticise you as a person (even more if you are fighting against the pandemic) but your approach which I find not very expedient.
 
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dualazmak

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Hello thewas,

I highly appreciate hearing your comments and nice suggestions on my multichannel multi-amplifier project. I will take all of your suggestions into my serious consideration for further improvement of the system in the near future.

As shown in my very first post #1, however, I am still keeping the entire system can be rolled back to my original single amplifier ACCUPHASE E-460 + LC-network (coils and capacitors) giving my base reference sound throughout this rather long journey project.

This means that I have been comparing each step of my progress in multichannel multi-amplifier project with my base reference sound any time, even daily bases, if needed. Of course, I understand that my approach in this regard is rather old fashion and quite conventional...

I started my current project in the summer of 2019 by taking out the whole LC-network out of the NS-1000's cabinet and fully renovated with brand new coils and capacitors which I still keep for the reference sound. As you may kindly understand, my first goal set at that time in my project was to achieve significant improvements of the total sound quality by multichannel multi-amplifier system with digital software crossover in the highest upstream by fully eliminating the LC-network, i.e. by direct drive of SP drivers with individual amplifiers.

After my recent (provisional) decision on the three amplifiers in the project, I fully confirmed that I could now have successfully achieved the first goal with much more than expected improvements compared to my base reference sound.

The journey took rather longer period than first thought, however, and it now makes me a little bit tired (or exausted) on "sound improvements", and now I would like to take my some resting period to fully enjoy "music", not "sound", with my present provisionally completed system.

I believe it should be important and worthwhile tentatively stopping further physical/electronical/software modifications for a while, and I need to listen and enjoy "music" with the amazingly improved system while just preparing for further possible improvements to be implemented as you kindly suggested.

I know well that I should have some objective data, like SPL at listening position (LP), REW-Wavelet analysis of room acoustic and possible delay characteristics measured at LP, all for my understandings on "what I am hearing now" for possible further improvements.

Edited to add:
Just for your reference, you would please find REW-Wavelet spectra of EKIO's line level output and actual sound at the listening posision in my listening room/environment in my post #16 through #24.

BTW, as you may agree, I found it is quite difficult describing the amazingly improved sound quality by my subjective words and/or some objective measurement data... If possible, I really would like to invite my dear ASR friends, including you, to my home for our audio and music listening sessions.
 
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thewas

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If possible, I really would like to invite my dear ASR friends, including you, to my home for our audio and music listening sessions.
Thank you very much for your kind reply, not misunderstanding my intentions and invitation, would love to visit you one day, especially since Japan is my dream holiday target, I love and collect several Japanese products since decades and watch NHK World almost daily.
どうぞよろしくお願いいたします。
 

Lbstyling

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I am sorry, but I have no further intention nor plan to measure frequency response (SPL) including off axis measurements since;

1. I do not like to be objective measurement addict,

2. I am only interested in L+R frequency response at usual listening position in the listening room and environments,

3. The purpose of my above measurements is just to see and confirm somewhat objectively after my ear-listening fine tuning of the total system,

4. Fq response (SPL) is just only one of the various factors affecting the total sound quality (musicality),

5. My SP alignment is rather wide-spread with the cabinet of NS-1000 plus super tweeters and sub-woofers, and the off axis measurements would be very much complicated and time consuming,

6. As wrote in my post #318, I have almost no interest in frequency response at very near (1 m?) from the SP drivers,

7. Because of my further overwhelming missions related to COVID19 pandemic and vaccination, I can find little time to perform further objective measurements for a while.

View attachment 114903

As for the very unique positioning of the super tweeters FOSTEX TA925A under the woofers, please refer to my specific post.

Your kind understanding will be highly appreciated.

Wonderful reply.

All things in balance, totally agree.

Have you considered that you hear more of the off axis sound than on axis even when sitting on axis? and this stands even when sat quite close to the source. The sound radiated into the room reflects off all the surfaces then reaches your ear rather than direct. the only difference is the reflected sounds are delayed by varying amounts of time depending on the distance.

Just something to ponder over.
 
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dualazmak

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dualazmak

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And, let me share this wonderful comment again with you...

Keith of Purité Audio simply and kindly wrote here;
You must hear equipment in your own room in your own system, compare unsighted if there isn’t an immediately apparent difference/improvement. To go further if there isn’t a significant improvement then don’t change anything, the largest gains are speakers and room. Keith

I assume this nice comment has been (and will be) fully encouraging and supporting my way forward on the long journey in multichannel multi-amplifier project. I believe that "speakers plus room environment" is a kind of "music instrument" in our HiFi audio system.
 
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mikessi

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dualazmak -- It took me a day or two of sporadic scanning & close reading to get all the way through this thread, but I'm finally uptodate!

I've been a user of digital xovers, multi-channel amps and active speakers since building a pair of Linkwitz Orions 6 years ago. I've experimented a fair bit with REW, JRiver, miniDSP products, a handful of amps, and drivers from SBAcoustics, BG, Aurum Cantus, Peerless, ScanSpeak, SEAS, Peerless, B&C, Focal, Eminence, etc. I also acquired & experimented with a pair of Yamaha NS1000 for a year, and purchased one good pair of the beryllium dome mids used in the NS1000 -- this is still the biggest beryllium dome driver I know of & it measures very well. My intent is to make a seriously good pair of speaker with these domes at the heart. It's my belief that as good as the NS1000 is, it's been surpassed in many ways, and that unique dome driver deserves a chance to shine even more.

Your singular quest to wring the maximum out of your NS1000 is laudable, reminiscent in some ways of JK Wynn's work. The Octo DA8 Pro you've already acquired makes me drool; I've been dithering whether to go for one or wait for my EE/audiophile/DIY buddy to finish building his magnum opus to combine the firmware/xover control of the miniDSP with the hardware of the Octo.

But have you considered the advances made in speaker driver technologies, and in directivity control (and the resultant improvements in speaker/room interface and perceived fidelity)? With the former, I refer to not only beryllium domes but Textreme by many driver manufacturers (disregarding for now all the other technical ways that drivers have been improved in the last 40 years). With the latter, I refer to the technologies used by Kii, Dutch&Dutch, Genelec, and even JBL these days. Controlled constant directivity over the audible frequency range seems a critical key to consistent high performance in speakers, and the NS1000 simply doesn't go there.

The resurgence of horns and renewed efforts to use them for improved matching of directivity in crossover transitions is yielding remarkable things, not only by high-profile brands but enthusiasts and DIYers. The work of Joseph Crowe is but one example of this flowering.

Careful study of my NS1000 samples showed the tweeter response drops like a stone beyond ~15kHz, and its performance overall does not match that of the SBAcoustics berylliums or the BG planars. The woofer is also not really special, and bettered by many current drivers of the same or even smaller size. It's hard to say this is typical, having examined only one (quite good condition) pair of NS1000. The enclosure is remarkably well built, but its shape and size does nothing to reduce diffraction. IMHO, it is the mid dome that is truly remarkable in the NS1000.

This is not to denigrate your amazingly detailed posts and your dedication to the quest, which I applaud. I only ask -- have you considered alternatives to the NS1000 upon which to build your altar to Multi-Channel, Multi-Amplifier Audio System Using Software Crossover and Multichannel-DAC? Or is your quest intrinsically tied to the NS1000?
 
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dualazmak

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Hello mikessi,

I highly appreciate your reading through my rather long thread, and having your wonderful comments and suggestions. I feel that your post almost perfectly represents my current thoughts.

You wrote;
"I also acquired & experimented with a pair of Yamaha NS1000 for a year, and purchased one good pair of the beryllium dome mids used in the NS1000 -- this is still the biggest beryllium dome driver I know of & it measures very well. My intent is to make a seriously good pair of speaker with these domes at the heart. It's my belief that as good as the NS1000 is, it's been surpassed in many ways, and that unique dome driver deserves a chance to shine even more."
and also;
"IMHO, it is the mid dome that is truly remarkable in the NS1000."

Yes, I fully agree with you that the still magically wonderful Be-dome midrange squawker (Be-SQ) makes NS-1000 and NS-1000M truly remarkable even at present. I am very much interested in, therefore, your possible multichannel multi-amplifier project using the Be-SQ and other SP drivers. I am really looking forward to hearing your progress in the near future in ASR.

"NS1000 samples showed the tweeter response drops like a stone beyond ~15kHz, and its performance overall does not match that of the SBAcoustics berylliums or the BG planars. The woofer is also not really special, and bettered by many current drivers of the same or even smaller size."

I also fully agree with your observations. As you may assume, because of these, I added super tweeter (ST) Fostex T925A and still very nice active sub-woofer (SW) Yamaha YST-SW1000, in L & R.

Let me also emphasize that the complete elimination of the LC inductor/coil and capacitors in the woofer (WO) line significantly contributed to the better driving, i.e. much better response with less power, by the dedicated amplifier.

"The enclosure is remarkably well built, but its shape and size does nothing to reduce diffraction."

I agree again, and it would be the physical limitation of NS-1000.

"I only ask -- have you considered alternatives to the NS1000 upon which to build your altar to Multi-Channel, Multi-Amplifier Audio System Using Software Crossover and Multichannel-DAC?"

My answer is "Yes" and "No"!

At the beginning of the project, I decided to use NS-1000's cabinet and SP drivers and set a firm policy of "not changing it" together with ST T925A and SW YST-SW1000.

And I also decided to keep the reference sound given by the single amp (Accuphase E-460) plus the fully renovated LC-network in outer box, and I may easily rollback to this reference sound/system at any time throughout my multichannel multi-amplifier project, even daily basis, for comparative listening sessions.

Having these firm policy and rollback setup, I started my project step-by-step towards improvements of the total sound quality.

I also had thoughts that I should accumulate various hardware and software knowledge, acutual tuning techniques, and experiment-evidence-based preferable modification(s) in the audio system.

One of the nice examples of such approach, I believe, would be how I could eliminate the attenuators for Be-SQ, Be-TW and ST without deteriorating the sound as shared in my post #248 and #251. In other words, the direct and dedicated drive of these SP drivers by individual amps would now make the system very much sensitive to such a fine tuning in this project.

My rather long journey on amplifier exploration also gave me a lot of insights and experiences, such as HiFi Class-A amps well fit for Be-SQ+ST, and also nice HiFi "integrated amps" should not be excluded in this type of multi-amplifier project.

Now while listening and enjoying the much improved total sound quality in my music library, I believe that my policy and approach were so far well validated, and I could well accumulate various knowledge and know-how in multichannel multi-amplifier audio system using digital software crossover in upstream PC and the nice multichannel DAC i.e. Okto DAC8PRO.

Of course, I need to, and would like to, fully enjoy music (not sound) with my (provisionally) completed multichannel multi-amplifier system with NS-1000's cabinet and drivers for a while (coming one year or so). During that period, however, I may possibly start considering my next step forward like as you kindly suggested using some other speakers and/or SP drivers of new modern design and technologies...

I assume my current ASR thread here should be kept limiting on NS-1000's cabinet and drivers plus YST-SW1000 and T925A; my possible way-forward with other SP drivers would be covered by new thread hopefully to be inaugurated in the near future.

Thank you so much again for your interests on this thread and nice comments as well as wonderful suggestions.

with my best regards,

dualazmak
 
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mikessi

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Thanks for your detailed reply, dualazmak.

Your approach carefully limits you to the NS1000 & its original drivers, despite the wide ranging explorations into software-based digital xovers, state-of-the-art DAC & amps. Notwithstanding the added sub & supertweeter. It's your prerogative and the self-defined target of your project, so that's all good.

I guess you're wanting a reference point to look back and compare with -- though to do that through memory is a tricky business. Maybe you have another stock pair of NS1000 in the wings to unveil as a reference point in the future? ;)

I aspire to create a better active system than the flawed Linkwitz Orions referred to in the first post, but in a dipole configuration with better controlled directivity in both directions, or a cardioid system. I've experimented in recent years with both LX521 and Juhazi's implementation of the Gradient 1.3 in diyAudio -- as well as the NS1000. With all the choices out there, I may end up frozen in indecision, however.

A purpose-built studio/lab for audio pursuits isn't doing much these days. I was busy in there before...
IMG_20190405_141927.jpg
IMG_20200225_173310.jpg

IMG_20200422_154627.jpg
 
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gene_stl

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Hello Mikessi

Your link above elicits a 404 error.

Welcome to ASR and to dualazmak-san's thread.

You mention the wonderfulness of the NS1000 midrange. You also mention that in the last 40 years it has been exceeded by various manufacturer's but I actually don't see it. Even though they were pricey top of the line speakers they are "merely" a three way system. dualazmak's has been improved to an active five way. My own execution from 1977 is a massive, active four way. If one makes these modifications then one gets to pick crossover frequencies that mainly radiate hemispherically. Converting to four or five way also reduces the number of octaves that each driver has to transduce which should help reduce distortion.

There are lots of Beryllium drivers available now. But the Yamahas still look the best to me, because they are the only ones made by vapor deposition a pricey and difficult process. All the current ones are made from Be sheet metal which is formed ,and although probably lighter than many other diaphragm materials , I think are much more massive. (I am speculating here and am very happy to be corrected if am mistaken).

There is a famous recording engineer Igor Kirkwood ( a member here)who also likes Yamaha Be drivers. He uses the newer model from the NS 2000 which shows graphs with slightly lower distortion. Even the "old" 1000 midrange which I bet on in 1976 later was cited in "High Performance Loudspeakers" by Martin Collums in which he stated that it had "the lowest distortion of any driver he has measured" and said the same thing about the tweeters in the tweeter chapter.

People speak of improvements since the NS1000 but I don't actually see very many. I have had a few occasions to listen to, JBL 4367 driven by Mark Levinson gear (new Harmon ML) and it didn't make me want to rebuild nor get out my wallet. The system was in a well treated room and assembled by a very hard core audiophile. I liked the sound of it but didn't hear anything I hadn't heard before on recordings I was familiar with.

In addition to the above mentioned low distortion measurements in Collums classic text , on page 453 of Dr. Toole's book you can see that the NS1000 is the only vintage speaker out of twelve on that page that has a Spinorama that looks great even amongst modern speakers.

I was one of the earliest followers to the late great Sigfried Linkwitz. (somehow I happened onto his 1976 JAES paper) I cross my system over with a Pioneer Series 20 four way analog crossover which was just measured on the bench and does not need any recapping nor anything else. Interestingly it's 12 db per octave position crosses at the minus 6 db point. This unit must have been designed prior to Linkwitzes publication of what has become known as the Linkwitz Riley crossover characteristics. I conclude that Pioneer electronic engineers quietly came up with the same calculations and kept them as trade secrets. There are similar characteristics in the contemporaneous Sony Esprit crossover which arrives at a similar radiation pattern using a different route.

It is my opinion that if you are going to build a four way active system, if you use even the slightest care in selecting the drivers, crossover characteristics and enclosures and mounts, you are going to end up with a pretty slick system compared to most commercial set ups.

I would be interested in, which raw drivers, you think are better than the NS1000. In my system I run them from 1000(ocassionally 1250) to 5000 Hz.
 
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dualazmak

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Hello mikessi,

Thank you again for your kind reply post above; as gene_stl indicated, I also have 404 errors for your "google photos". Would you please check those, and hopefully please directly insert or attach the jpeg photos instead of the "google photo album links".
 
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dualazmak

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Hello again gene_stl,

I highly appreciate your wonderful post above responding to dear mikessi; I believe your in-depth information and thoughts are much worthwhile for many other ASR friends visiting this thread.

You wrote;
"There is a famous recording engineer Igor Kirkwood ( a member here)who also likes Yamaha Be drivers. He uses the newer model from the NS 2000 which shows graphs with slightly lower distortion. "

Yes, Igor Kirkwood kindly posted very suggestive messages here in this thread, and I had really nice discussions with Igor which can be found in post #179 through #189. If my understanding is correct, he is using NS-1000X, not NS-2000...

In his posts #185 and #188, he kindly shared Fq response and distortion data of his NS-1000X opearated in multichannel multi-amplifier system. His listening room setup photo in post #185 is really fantastic...

"I was one of the earliest followers to the late great Sigfried Linkwitz. (somehow I happened onto his 1976 JAES paper) I cross my system over with a Pioneer Series 20 four way analog crossover which was just measured on the bench and does not need any recapping nor anything else. Interestingly it's 12 db per octave position crosses at the minus 6 db point. This unit must have been designed prior to Linkwitzes publication of what has become known as the Linkwitz Riley crossover characteristics. I conclude that Pioneer electronic engineers quietly came up with the same calculations and kept them as trade secrets. There are similar characteristics in the contemporaneous Sony Esprit crossover which arrives at a similar radiation pattern using a different route."

This is really interesting story and insights of you especially "12 db per octave position crosses at the minus 6 db point".

"I would be interested in, which raw drivers, you think are better than the NS1000. In my system I run them from 1000 (ocassionally 1250) to 5000 Hz."

Let me join your interest, although I assume that mikessi still believes Yamaha Be-dome would be the best choice at least for the midrange...
 
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dualazmak

dualazmak

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Hello mikessi,

Thank you, now I can see your amazing photos! Let me follow your post hopefully later today; it is 07:10 AM here in Japan...
 

gene_stl

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Quite correct Igor Kirkwood has NS1000X I had a senior moment.

iirc, The Sony Esprit used a Chebyshev based filter rather than Butterworth. It had a ripply passband. I think it was supposed to have better phase characteristics. It may have been fourth order too. I remember lusting after it mightily. In the seventies.:)

Indeed very nice studio. What is that tweeter atop the left Linkwitz speaker.

One other thing I will mention. I like sealed box or infinite baffle wooofers. Amplifier power is now almost free (like memory and bandwidth)
and I still like my decision to make my boxes sealed. At my old house the speakers were fitted into alcoves that slot loaded them a little. I didn't have any method of measuring harmonic distortion in those ancient days. The guy that built my last house actually had a couple of coved doorjam looking holes into which he had installed multiple woofer containing panels(bedroom infinite baffle!) among other hifi acoutrements. He had his tube mono system built into a vented closet. I knew that the house was for me. Somewhere I still have his drawings. He was an engineer at McDonnell Aircraft and had built all his components from scratch and made them rack mountable.
 
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mikessi

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Hope the pics show up now; they did for me before. Now maybe they're too big?

gene_stl --

I didn't suggest the NS1000 mid domes have been bettered.

Afaik, both the tweeters and the woofers have, and there's not much question any more about diffraction & directivity effects of a box like that, is there? My Satori Beryllium tweeters (TW29BN) measure & sound better, and I also prefer the BG Neo8 in comparisons I made against the Yamaha tweeter. I haven't heard the BlieSMA T34B-4 but expect it to easily outperform.

I also expect that high quality cone 3~5" mid drivers like those from SBAcoustics/Satori & ScanSpeak (using Texteme, paper or metal cones) will give the big Yamaha mid dome a run for the $.

This is very specific to my test room & setup, but I have to say the stock NS1000s didn't match the experimental LX521 variants I ran for a while. No serious measurements done, as the dipoles are a challenge to measure well. Several enthusiasts who came together to hear the systems concurred: in almost every aspect of performance, the LX521s were preferred. But this was not a fair contest: the Yamahas were stock, the stands less than ideal; the experimental speakers fully active, xover setting modified to suit from SL's last recommendations, and measured/re-tweaked (using REW, miniDSP DA8 & USB mic) ad nauseum for 3 months in that room & that system. This is not to say the stock Yamahas were not nice to listen to: They are excellent speakers, with a very nice overall balance of strengths. But in contrast to the dipole active 4-ways, the music sounded decidedly more limited or constrained to the boxes, whose effects could sometimes be heard (in the lower registers)

I have not see your reference in Dr. Toole's book. That's very interesting. Another reason to finally find that tome.

ps -- gene_stl -- that tweeter is an Aurum Cantus ATM (Heil). Conveniently dipole & a pretty impressive measuring/sounding transducer. I used them in a couple of dipoles I ran for a while. But I've come to realize the BG planars have what appears at first a more muted sound which turns out in the long run to be greater neutrality & lower distortion.

ps -- I also tried replacing the original NS1000 tweeters with a pair of Seas domes I liked. Had to build faceplates from Baltic Birch plywood for them to fit in the recess for the NS1000 cabinets. Both mid & tweeter drivers in the NS1000 have those rounded-off square shapes that are difficult for DIYers. The Seas tweeter experiment was not entirely satisfactory, measurement or listening-wise. The originals went back in before my enthusiast friends visited.
 

gene_stl

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On my system I have four NS500 tweeters which appear to me to be identical to the NS1000 but they have a larger magnet and maybe a decibel more efficiency. In the 500 they are a two way with a ten inch wooofer. I cross them at 5,000 and drive them with a class A amp. (They also have a slightly different finish than the 1000)

There is a great audio surplus guy here in st louis that everyone should check out on ebay. RescueAudio llc. He is a retired rock and roll sound guy.
He had a large load of Christie theater speakers that had BG tweeters. I was tempted to buy one to build a center channel. But a certain famous audio authority whom I was corresponding with online said they had not performed well in his lab, and essentially advised against it, so I let them go. I was quite tempted by them but I decided I am mainly going to stay with what I have. I will construct a center channel from Yamaha components or use an NS series box. (possibly a 1000X or 2000)

I have never worried much about box diffraction. I doubt most folks can hear it.

When we built my speakers we made female router guides out of 3/8 inch masonite. For the tweeters , midranges and JBL LE10 woofers. All flush mounted.

I am going to use NS1000 for surrounds, and temporarily for the center. Operated full range with their internal crossovers initially.:eek:o_O
 
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