More nonsense on Agon

[Trell]

That Audiogon site is basically anti-science like a number of other “audiophile” sites.

 

[TheBatsEar]

Other followers chime in on occasion with their own "measurements" that would receive an F in high school science. Other followers drone on in posts full of random technical jargon claiming vast knowledge and experience. And there is the attack dog crowd ready to pounce with insults and slander toward anyone with differing experience or knowledge. The tens of thousands referenced are a cult that you, Amir, cultivate and allow to fester.

Life ASR cult member reaction:

These people need to relax and join with an open mind to maybe discover the value ASR provides.

 

[Snoopy]

I had no idea that everybody reading and posting here is automatically in a "cult".

I mean even if I don't agree with someone else here on whatever.. what's problem?
And I believe Amirn never forced his measurements down someone's throat that for example likes tubes, vinyl or DSD.



so I ran in another forum into someone that claimed the same master (CRC checksum all matches) burned on different types of CDs (blu-spec, uhqCD and smhcd that are just different types of plastic and manufacturing machines) would sound different. Because of the material used.. and obviously the proof was a biased listening test+ a pictures of a untreated room with expensive loudspeakers.

Stuff like that is the reason why a generally avoid other places whenever possible.

 

[TheBatsEar]

I had no idea that everybody reading and posting here is automatically in a "cult".

Typical day in a cult, doing cult things:

Amirn never forced his measurements down someone's throat that for example likes tubes, vinyl or DSD

I don't think that is the problem. I suspect some of the loudest of those guys came in here, wrote down the words that earn them authority in their community, but they didn't earn authority with them here. Eventually they escalated and the mods shut them down. We all have seen it.

Authority in this community seems to come from different sources: experience, amount of contributions, being able to explain things calmly and precisely. Positive things.

 

[ahofer]

I don't think that is the problem. I suspect some of the loudest of those guys came in here, wrote down the words that earn them authority in their community, but they didn't earn authority with them here. Eventually they escalated and the mods shut them down. We all have seen it.

Exactly. Most of this forum hostility relates to status-seeking. It is high-status to claim to hear ant farts from Pluto in some circles, but low status here. Quite a shock.

 

[Geert]

I had no idea that everybody reading and posting here is automatically in a "cult".

Yep, and engineering degrees are actually an initiation to the cult. Thousands of schools brainwashing students, it's a miracle they manage to design something successfully after their terrible struggle to find a job. Amir has been running that scam worldwide behinds the scenes for more than 50 years.

 

[melvinjames]

@ahofer well thought out posts. Nicely done!

 

[MattHooper]

My point is that retailers could easily decide for themselves which component does and does not make an audible difference , simply by running unsighted level matched comparisons for themselves, but they don’t.
Keith

Because many of them are of the same beliefs as their clients - "everything makes a difference" and "anyone can hear it just by (sighted) listening." That's why it's not an easy leap to determining if a dealer is selling gear he believes to be snake oil.

 

[MattHooper]

Considering we are talking about a field of objective science, can we really let people off the hook that easily?

I don't think sellers of bogus products should be left off the hook easily. That's why this forum is so valuable.

But in terms of diagnosing someone's inner psychological life, that's another matter. This isn't a court and we don't need to establish intent - the claims are
the important thing to challenge.

Believe me, I have blood boiling anger at what seem to me to be utter charlatans in the industry. But even then, if I step back, I remind myself that people
really can believe crazy sh*t. I'd prefer to see direct evidence of someone caught admitting they know their claims are false. Because "having debunked their claims" simply IS NOT sufficient to diagnose someone is lying. I come from looking in to fringe beliefs since the late 80's or so, and one common thread is you can debunk someone's belief until the cows come home, and they'll still believe. I mean...Flat Earth...QANON...Election Denial....

Someone who is recalcitrant in the face of correction can produce the same look, the same vibe, as someone who is simply lying. That's why I'm more cautious
about making those inferences, and why I think ultimately it tends to be a waste of resources (unless we were in the position of charging someone for fraud).
I do get that it is emotionally satisfying to nonetheless get off our chest the belief that someone is a lying snake oil salesman.

I don't think any honest soul could spew that marketing hogwash while keeping a straight face and least of all someone who is supposed to be invested into the hobby (and as such should have more technical knowledge than the average layman).

Yet audiophiles who are not selling all this tweaky stuff, only buying, will report their impressions of cables etc in similar language. That should indicate that spouting nonsense like that doesn't entail subterfuge.

 

[ahofer]

@ahofer well thought out posts. Nicely done!

Now I'm descending into it. Someone talk me out of this....

UPDATE - I'm close to GFY after just a few posts.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

I come from looking in to fringe beliefs since the late 80's or so, and one common thread is you can debunk someone's belief until the cows come home, and they'll still believe.

Absolutely true.
I think for a true believer, resisting attempts of "coercion" and standing their ground is part of the whole point of believing. Humans are really weird in this regard, especially once they found a few peers that share their belief and create an echo chamber.

Do I think every salesman in an audio store, that talks to me about how e.g.: "an amp needs a beefy toroid in order to sound good" is an evil, mustache twirling villain that has it in for poor wallet-kun? Of course not. Though many will try to "upsell" you, even if they know that the difference in products is marginal at best. Honest ones that tell you e.g.: "the more expensive item doesn't really do much in your particular use-case." are rare.

The seller in your mom & pop's garage audio shop, most likely, doesn't have the education necessary to cut through the marketing BS.

However:
I think most of the ones that produce these things do. They KNOW. They designed the useless, overpriced gadget. They came up with the marketing blah. And yes: I am sure they also measure. Not publicly but in house they definitely do.

So yes: I do hold them accountable in a sense that companies who do shady stuff do not get my cash.
Not much else I can do, except point anyone I meet to this forum. An isle of reason in a stormy sea of emotion driven marketing.

Yet audiophiles who are not selling all this tweaky stuff, only buying, will report their impressions of cables etc in similar language. That should indicate that spouting nonsense like that doesn't entail subterfuge.

Most audiophiles have 0 technical knowledge, as it is not a requirement for the hobby. So you really can't fault them too much. They get fed nonsensical data that creates bias and then human nature kick in re-affirming said bias, after all what all the other members hear must be true the Kilobuck cable must do something, after all.

Not everyone is wired like me, that has no qualms to go on head-fi and tell them that I cannot hear any difference between Focal's fancy Clear cable and a 5 bucks Amazon extension and then shrug off the laughter that ensues. :'D

I expect a little more from vendors and equipment producers especially.

 

[krabapple]

Geoff Kait is practically a performance artist. The rest of them are just fools.

 

[krabapple]

View attachment 295088

Philosophically (and even legally, in the USA) George is correct! It's simply 'being wrong about something', or a delusion.

A lie has *intent* behind it. And that can be hard to prove.

 

[shuppatsu]

UPDATE - I'm close to GFY after just a few posts.

I like how your points are discounted because you are merely a proxy for Amir. I like how Amir's points are discounted because he has the gall to rebut their criticisms.

BTW I think yours and Amir's posts strike the perfect tone. They don't brook nonsense, but they are calm and level. You're not going to persuade the people leveling the criticisms--they are too far gone for that. But their inability to substantively address your points may persuade open-minded lurkers.

 

[MattHooper]

Now I'm descending into it. Someone talk me out of this....

UPDATE - I'm close to GFY after just a few posts.

Ha. Understandable.

I'm posting now in that thread by my Agon screen name "prof."

I enjoy some subjective discussion on Agon (though don't show up there very often these days). But clashing with the usual crowd does tend to compel me to take a break from the place.

Best to remember that rebutting dubious claims is worthwhile for those watching, if not likely to change the mind of the person you are interacting with. Similar to the role of public debates.

 

[BinkieHuckerback]

...everyone is entitled to their own truth...not.

 

[12Many]

Is audio any different then many other industries? Is a 150$ steak that much different then a 50$ steak? Is a $10,000 watch that much different then a $2000 watch. Jewelry?

 

[ahofer]

LOL

Here's the post, highlighted:

Oops, my follow up also appears to be deleted.

Enough. I'm out of that cesspool. Should never have gone in.

 

[Vacceo]

Is audio any different then many other industries? Is a 150$ steak that much different then a 50$ steak? Is a $10,000 watch that much different then a $2000 watch. Jewelry?

I fence with historical weapons. Any hand and half sword made today will smash any original. That is a simple fact that can be measured and analyzed with the chemistry and physics we know today. The original will cost orders of magnitude more simply because it is a six or seven century old piece, not due to its quality.

Price sometimes is simply a bragging rights matter.

 

[melvinjames]

@ahofer it is indeed a cesspool there and is why I deleted my account (and it wasn't the 1st time either).