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Missing fundamental for a 15kHz signal - audible or not?

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lashto

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Addendum: We could have saved ourselves a lot of work and discussion if we had contacted an AI right away - we are so screwed! ;)


Are there studies about the maximal frequency humans can hear the "missing fundamental"?

Yes, there have been studies conducted to investigate the maximum frequency at which humans can perceive the missing fundamental. These studies have found that the upper limit for the perception of missing fundamental frequency varies between individuals and can depend on factors such as age, hearing health, and musical training.

One study published in the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America found that the upper limit for the perception of missing fundamental frequency ranged from 110 Hz to 320 Hz among a group of musically trained participants. Another study published in the same journal found that the upper limit for the perception of missing fundamental frequency was around 150 Hz for non-musicians and around 200 Hz for musicians.

Overall, the upper limit for the perception of missing fundamental frequency appears to be in the range of several hundred hertz. However, it is important to note that the ability to perceive the missing fundamental frequency is influenced by many factors, and the upper limit may vary widely between individuals.

Can you list the sources?

Sure, here are the sources for the studies I mentioned:
  • McAdams, S., & Bregman, A. S. (1979). Hearing musical streams. Psychological Review, 86(5), 416– 429. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-295X.86.5.416
  • Risset, J. C., & Wessel, D. L. (1969). Exploration of timbre by analysis and synthesis. In A. V. Luca (Ed.), Reports of the 1969 Institute for Perception (pp. 122–129). Eindhoven: Eindhoven University of Technology.
  • Terhardt, E. (1974). Pitch, consonance, and harmony. Journal of the Acoustical Society of America, 55(5), 1061–1069. https://doi.org/10.1121/1.1914648
  • Warren, R. M. (1970). Perceptual restoration of missing speech sounds. Science, 167(3917), 392–393. https://doi.org/10.1126/science.167.3917.392

But we should keep in mind that AI's sometimes misinterpret data, so to check the quality of the answers, a question from which we already know the answer:
hm, turns out your AI has a lot of more money/accounts than me and can read a lot of paywalled stuff

It is also a bit confused :) .. unfortunatelly, some of that confusion can be blamed on me too.

The cited studies are in the context of pitch perception (and unfortunately the same is true for all missingF studies I found). They are not only studiying if one can hear "something" at the missingF frequency but they have two extra conditions:
  1. the tester must be able to clearly identify the missingF's pitch/frequency.
  2. most of them also impose that the tester is able to pitch-identify all harmonics (called "resolved harmonics")
Apparently, our perfect-pitch ability has a limit of about 4-5kHz and that limits the studied fundamentals to below 500Hz (the most used one seems to be 200Hz).


My question is a bit different: is there anything audible at that missingF frequency. Unfortunatelly, looks like nobody has studied that and everyone stopped at those pitch-identifiable frequencies. I was only able to find generic statements like "the audibility decreases at higher frequencies" .. but no precise info or study about where/why it actually stops.

I thought the thread-title which says "audible or not" was clear enough ... but admitedly it could have been more clear.

P.S.
still need to (re)find my references and organize a bit for a post that explains why I think there may be something audible at the missingF frequency. Even at 10+ kHz
 
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lashto

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you hear it?
kind of :)
I can say for sure that I do hear a single/combined sound. Apparently some people don't.
I can also say that the single sound seems to have the same pitch as the missing fundamental. But I am not sure I'd be able to pinpoint that pitch in a BT. Never tried but I doubt that I am one of those perfect-picth people (IIRC that's less than 10% of the population)
 

dasdoing

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kind of :)
I can say for sure that I do hear a single/combined sound. Apparently some people don't.
I can also say that the single sound seems to have the same pitch as the missing fundamental. But I am not sure I'd be able to pinpoint that pitch in a BT. Never tried but I doubt that I am one of those perfect-picth people (IIRC that's less than 10% of the population)

I can totally accept the possibility that others can hear it, just me doesn't. But I still have a hard time believing it. It's just an illusion

people can hear this:


here??:


???

it's 220Hz people are hearing and creates an illusion of 110Hz because it's an octave after all. some people can't even separate an octave interval from a single tone
 

dasdoing

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Julf

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Julf

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sure, I must add I am doing this on my TV.
I put 55Hz (1st harm.) and it is totally inaudible.
I put 82,5HZ (2nd harm.) and than add 55Hz it has audible interference
Right, so you are not really hearing a missing fundamental, but a cocktail mix on intermodulation products.
 
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