• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Missing fundamental for a 15kHz signal - audible or not?

fpitas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
9,885
Likes
14,270
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
It's not actually. In your parallel universe you're probably referring to the statement:



You want us to believe you started this thread to understand the audible effect of high frequency signals that are not produced by any music instrument (60kHz)?

I don't think so, since the whole discussion actually started with you claiming you can hear the effect of the first harmonic of 15kHz:
Be nice. OP may be a cat, or a dog. We should be inclusive.
 

Geert

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 20, 2020
Messages
1,994
Likes
3,692
Be nice. OP may be a cat, or a dog. We should be inclusive.

Cat's and dogs usually are well aware they made a mistake

Toyger-cat-broke-flower-pot_Nataliia-Pyzhova-Shutterstock.jpg
 

audiofooled

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 1, 2021
Messages
550
Likes
608
IMHO, regardless of the topic of discussion, at some point we need to reflect and ask ourselves about how beneficial to our hobby it would be if we continue in this or that direction. What have we learned, can we learn more, and if we can, will it consume more time and energy with little to no benefits?
For example, if someone's hobby is all about riding horses, weather the horse occasionally farts along the way and how audible it would be with regards to wind direction and ambient noise...
 

antcollinet

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2021
Messages
8,128
Likes
13,823
Location
UK/Cheshire
IMHO, regardless of the topic of discussion, at some point we need to reflect and ask ourselves about how beneficial to our hobby it would be if we continue in this or that direction. What have we learned, can we learn more, and if we can, will it consume more time and energy with little to no benefits?
For example, if someone's hobby is all about riding horses, weather the horse occasionally farts along the way and how audible it would be with regards to wind direction and ambient noise...
I'm not sure audibility of a horse fart is going to be the primary concern. Though wind direction probably will still be relevant. :p
 

Cars-N-Cans

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 19, 2022
Messages
819
Likes
1,014
Location
Dirty Jerzey
guess we have diff views about how this bet/thread is supposed to work.

I am only holding one side of the bet: the "it's audible" one. I/someone is supposed to act as an advocate for that side. Anyone else who wants that role is welcome. But I am not necessarily asking for that kind of help

You @Julf are holding the other side of the bet. And ~everyone else is supposed to do the same. Very highly welcome to!
No complaints there, many/most are doing a great job (much better than expected too).

Just let me do my 'job'. I haven't (blindly) refused anyone's argument, many of them are very much and very high "on the table".

P.S.
There is also quite a bit of talk about "beliefs". Sorry, none here.
It's a well described hypothesis, hopefully testable. I am asking for help to test/prove/disprove it.
I do not have high hopes for it and it's clearly somewhat feeble and fringe. But as long as there is no 100%-against proof, it'll stay (at least for me).
I am also holding a bet that Jimmy Hoffa will come riding in on a unicorn with Adolf Hitler riding shotgun. Neither of those individuals has ever had their true remains found, and there is no evidence in the fossil record of unicorns ever having gone extinct. Therefore, it must be true, and their arrival is eminent. :cool:

Just because we cannot disprove something "100%" does not automatically lend itself to said thing or claim being true. Before going looking for the remnants of something in the weeds, why not actually have a listen to the thing in question, namely 15 kHz? Also, why not try and go higher? (WARNING: Extreme care is required if you do decide to try this, and this will be virtually impossible with headphones/IEMs due to standing waves and cancellations within the ear canal. Best bet is to use a speaker with a calibrated measurement microphone to find the main portion of the radiation lobe of the tweeter, and listen there. DO NOT EXCEED 85 dBA. Blah blah blah...)

Just some quick impromptu tests using REW and my calibrated mic to find where I can confidently make out pure tones of 15 kHz, 16 kHz, and 18 kHz in terms of SPL.

15 kHz hearing threshold:
15 kHz thresh.png


16 kHz hearing threshold:
16 kHz thresh.png


18 kHz hearing threshold:
18 kHz thresh.png


The first immediate thing that can be seen is that the ear's sensitivity just plummets with rising frequency, and this will only get worse as I get further over the hill. Maybe you are young, and can hear better, but there are two other problems that will make this test virtually impossible even if one could hear tones beyond 20 kHz, and that is comb filtering and the response pattern of the ear at high frequencies. At 18 kHz, each ear only has one orientation where it can easily hear 18 kHz from the tweeter. Additionally, off-axis, the very fine pattern of comb-filtering makes such high frequencies very hard to make out as most of the time there won't be a peak that is in line with where the ear is most sensitive direction-wise. Further, its likely that only one ear at a time may actually hear the tone as the other will be in a null.

Back to the missing fundamental, the reason I can be so confident in it not being possible is if the actual fundamental is already a pain in the ass for most people to hear, how the hell are they supposed to hear the harmonics? Unless you can show you have hearing that rivals small rodents and bats I think its time to call it.
 

Cars-N-Cans

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 19, 2022
Messages
819
Likes
1,014
Location
Dirty Jerzey
That seems to contradict some of the "expert" opinions in this thread.
Researchers from 10+ universities/institutes are looking very hard into the matter. And they consider "missingF at very high freqs" tests so worthy that they went through the trouble of training bats/cats/etc. But some of our know-it-alls are very sure that the whole question is a waste of time. Hope you'll 'forgive' me for not agreeing with that...
I had a quick skim thru that paper. One thing that is VERY conspicuous is the range of frequencies used, as in like they are really low by your standards. Not surprisingly, even for cats their ability to hear the missing fundamental goes straight into the shitter above about 5-6 kHz.

1677211060435.png


I think, maybe, just maybe, humans might not be able to hear the missing 15 kHz fundamental.
 
OP
L

lashto

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 8, 2019
Messages
1,150
Likes
612
I think the goalposts are now out beyond Betelgeuse.
Unfortunately it seems so.
Also unfortunately, you seem to be one of the very few people who understand that. For some reason, everyone else seemed 'convinced' that it was easy-peasy. Maybe some of the "it's easy guys" can ask themselves: why would anyone ask for help and even offer to pay for an easy test ?!

And one extra observation: this is not a "now" thing. It was always so. The OP clearly states many of the issues and open questions. And you Tony were the first to point that and even nicely summarized even more headaches on the first thread page:
Your test proposal is decidedly non trivial. Apart from the difficulty you've pointed out of sourcing kit that can do it, It is not just a case of sending some ultrasonics through that kit and then listening - you are talking about subjective perception results, so to have any validity it will have to involve blinding, and multiple test subjects, training of them, devleloping a statisically robust test method, and subsequent statistical anlysis, etc etc. An exceptionally high effort undertaking.
oh well .. nothing (very) new on the missingF front ...
 

antcollinet

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2021
Messages
8,128
Likes
13,823
Location
UK/Cheshire
Unfortunately it seems so.
Also unfortunately, you seem to be one of the very few people who understand that. For some reason, everyone else seemed 'convinced' that it was easy-peasy. Maybe some of the "it's easy guys" can ask themselves: why would anyone ask for help and even offer to pay for an easy test ?!

And one extra observation: this is not a "now" thing. It was always so. The OP clearly states many of the issues and open questions. And you Tony were the first to point that and even nicely summarized even more headaches on the first thread page:

oh well .. nothing (very) new on the missingF front ...
Just to be 100% clear - my post was referencing the extent to which you are moving the goalposts.
 

Julf

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
3,095
Likes
4,145
Location
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Unfortunately it seems so.

Indeed. As long as you keep moving the goalposts instead of realizing you lost (and paying up), we will just be chasing unicorns and bigfeet here.

Also unfortunately, you seem to be one of the very few people who understand that. For some reason, everyone else seemed 'convinced' that it was easy-peasy. Maybe some of the "it's easy guys" can ask themselves: why would anyone ask for help and even offer to pay for an easy test ?!

Nice attempt at muddying the waters. This is not about "easy" or "hard" - the hardest part is trying to make sense of your constant diversions.

And one extra observation: this is not a "now" thing. It was always so. The OP clearly states many of the issues and open questions.

Go back and read your OP and the terms of the bet.

oh well .. nothing (very) new on the missingF front ...

Precisely.
 

pma

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 23, 2019
Messages
4,742
Likes
11,058
Location
Prague
@lashto what specifically would convince you that you've come down on the wrong side and should pay up?
And why do you need to have him convinced?? What gets you guys in need to persuade anyone! How much precious time is spent in pointless discussions, instead of showing something useful! If you have some skills, come in and show it, rather than persuading those who would not be persuaded!
 

antcollinet

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2021
Messages
8,128
Likes
13,823
Location
UK/Cheshire
And why do you need to have him convinced?? What gets you guys in need to persuade anyone! How much precious time is spent in pointless discussions, instead of showing something useful! If you have some skills, come in and show it, rather than persuading those who would not be persuaded!
They want the EUR100 for asr
 

fpitas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
9,885
Likes
14,270
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
Guys, the check is in the mail. Be patient.
 
OP
L

lashto

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 8, 2019
Messages
1,150
Likes
612
Just to be 100% clear - my post was referencing the extent to which you are moving the goalposts.
that should be easy to show: quote a "fixed goalpost" from the OP and show how I moved it.

AFAIR, there were two "moves":
- ~everyone said that 15kHz is too tough (logistics/human-nature/etc). And I also agreed that it should be ok to lower that Freq.
- The very open "how many Hs" question ended up with the "4-5+" answer. Answered by reliable studies just as requested. It was always an open question in the OP and was re-asked/mentioned in the thread.
 

Julf

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
3,095
Likes
4,145
Location
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
that should be easy to show: quote a "fixed goalpost" from the OP and show how I moved it.

A somewhat heated discussion arose in a diff thread about the missing fundamental of a 15kHz signal. On short: considering that its 30/45/60/..kHz HDs are inaudible, will 15 kHz be audible as a missingF ?

There are many pro & contra arguments but a clear, direct test is missing: i.e. generate a 30/45/60/..kHz combo-signal and see if its 15kHz missingF can be heard.

I offered to donate €50 to ASR if someone does a (credible) test. And increase that to €100 is someone figures out an easy test that can be done by AverageAsrJoe. Or even by me (details in the spoiler below).

I'll pay that if my assumption (missingF still audible) turns out to be wrong. @Julf already offered to take the other side of the 'bet. Any other amateurs?

And an even bigger question: anyone who can/want to actually do the test?

That was the bet.

Yes, you did have a spoiler with "some extra details for the curious". Mostly with your assumptions which have been shown to be invalid.

But never mind, no point in continuing, you will never admit you lost. This horse has been flogged to beyond anything reasonable. Not worth wasting time on.
 
OP
L

lashto

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 8, 2019
Messages
1,150
Likes
612
@lashto what specifically would convince you that you've come down on the wrong side and should pay up?
the direct and reproducible/verifiable test that I asked for :)

Done in the usual "nobody needs to trust anybody" manner.
If somebody says "I hear it", there should be no need to trust their words. They need to have clear/verifiable proof, e.g. the Foobar ABX with hashed 3rd party files.
Same goes for "I don't hear it". And (unfortunately) I have no idea how to make that statement provable. Help needed.

Otherwise, "I hear crickets" means nothing and "I don't hear crickets" means even less.

Yes, I could be the nice guy: just believe what anyone says and pay the bet. But that only 'proves' that I was nice and does not answer the question. Neither for me nor for anyone else.

P.S.
I am not asking for anything new/special here: it's just the usual AES-paper-quality answer/test requested on any other ASR thread.
 
Last edited:

Julf

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
3,095
Likes
4,145
Location
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
the direct and reproducible/verifiable test that I asked for :)

You have been told (multiple times) how to do it, and also people have reported doing it - with results disproving your speculation. You don't have to believe their results, just go and do it yourself - but worming yourself out of paying by saying "I don't believe anyone else's results but won't do the test myself" seems to be the path you have chosen.
 
OP
L

lashto

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 8, 2019
Messages
1,150
Likes
612
That was the bet.
and that is a welcome reminder. We do not have much of a bet anymore, because someone dropped off.
(and btw, that's actually the only real/big change that happened since the thread start)
Can this one-sided-version still be called a bet ?!

Anyway, I'm still in. May not be worth it, but here's another plea for bet-volunteers.

A positive answer to that plea would be quite a Miracle but who knows, miracles happen too :)
 

Julf

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
3,095
Likes
4,145
Location
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
and that is a welcome reminder. We do not have much of a bet anymore, because someone dropped off.

Who would that be? I did not "drop off", I won the bet.

Can this one-sided-version still be called a bet ?!

Well, you defined a one-sided bet, and called it a bet, so clearly yes.

Anyway, I'm still in.

Good. So pay up!

A positive answer to that plea would be quite a Miracle but who knows, miracles happen too :)

You actually following the rules of your own bet would be quite a Miracle but who knows, miracles happen too :)
 
Top Bottom