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Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

Newman

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Do you believe in the concept of synergy in audio? That certain combinations of audio gear can combine and result in a particular effect whether desirable or not? And if not why not?
If your turntable has a slight drop off in treble and your speakers have a slight lift in treble, that’s not synergy, that’s compensation.

Synergy implies that the result of the above two components is better than if they had both been flat FR.

I would like to see your argument that there is any case for true synergy in audio, not just compensation or compatibility.
 

Ron Texas

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If your turntable has a slight drop off in treble and your speakers have a slight lift in treble, that’s not synergy, that’s compensation.

Synergy implies that the result of the above two components is better than if they had both been flat FR.

I would like to see your argument that there is any case for true synergy in audio, not just compensation or compatibility.
I believe it's possible that what appears to be compensation at first look could turn out to be synergy in practice.
 

Killingbeans

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Depends on how you define "synergy". If it's "it gives a surprisingly enjoyable result", then yeah sure.

If it's "when you add these two things together, it breaks the laws of physics", then hell no!
 

egellings

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Toyota used the word 'synergy' in their Prius brand of sedan that combines a gasoline engine and battery-powered motor to augment each other. That was an apt use of the word.
 

Dimitrov

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If your turntable has a slight drop off in treble and your speakers have a slight lift in treble, that’s not synergy, that’s compensation.

Synergy implies that the result of the above two components is better than if they had both been flat FR.

I would like to see your argument that there is any case for true synergy in audio, not just compensation or compatibility.
And if one hears a difference or improvement towards better synergy - will they then be wrong?
 

antcollinet

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And if one hears a difference or improvement towards better synergy - will they then be wrong?
How do you hear a difference "towards better synergy"? That doesn't make sense to me.

The sound may be better by combining the bright speaker with dull turntable, compared with dull speakers with dull turntable. But the better sound doesn't change it from compensation to synergy.

Synergy is about all items pulling in the same direction towards better sound. Not one item pulling in one direction and another compensating that by pulling in a different direction.
 

j_j

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Synergy is about all items pulling in the same direction towards better sound. Not one item pulling in one direction and another compensating that by pulling in a different direction.

Where "better" in this case is "better for the person who uses the system", I think. As long as this sticks to personal preference there is no "wrong".

But "better sound" is where the whole question lies. Better for the listener? More identical to the "master"? "Sounds more live". Answering the question beyond personal preference (which again, has no "wrong") is very hard to even define.
 

antcollinet

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Where "better" in this case is "better for the person who uses the system", I think. As long as this sticks to personal preference there is no "wrong".

But "better sound" is where the whole question lies. Better for the listener? More identical to the "master"? "Sounds more live". Answering the question beyond personal preference (which again, has no "wrong") is very hard to even define.
True

A better word for the situation where a set of gear with random characteristics when used together just happen to align with an individuals preference might be "serendipity"
 

Killingbeans

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And if one hears a difference or improvement towards better synergy - will they then be wrong?

Depends on what is being precieved vs. what is actually happening.

If the improvement seems to be an objectively higher aproximation to "wire-with-gain" in the sense that 'gear 11' + 'gear 9' = 'performance 25', then that's just not physically possible. The weakest link will always be the one determining the performance, as in reality being much closer to 'gear 11' + 'gear 9' = 'performance 9' *. Although, this is not an invitation to embrace the "everything matters" philosophy and start chasing bottlenecks in places where there are non to be found.

Maybe the precived higher aproximation to "wire-with-gain" is a result of a mix of nonlinearities, that just happens to tickle your personal taste in a way that gives you a better illusion of the playback system being "transparent". In that case you are not "wrong", but your conclusion about what's physically taking place might be faulty.

Even in the case of the experience being nothing but placebo, I wouldn't call it "wrong". Enjoyment can't be wrong.

But again, the conclusions you draw from the experience can very possibly be faulty.

*Gross oversimplification and disregarding gain structure, but I hope it still makes sense.
 

Ornette

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If your turntable has a slight drop off in treble and your speakers have a slight lift in treble, that’s not synergy, that’s compensation.

Synergy implies that the result of the above two components is better than if they had both been flat FR.

I would like to see your argument that there is any case for true synergy in audio, not just compensation or compatibility.
I'd argue that the terms compensation and synergy both apply in the example above.

Synergy, by dictionary definition, simply means that the combined effect of two agents is "better" than their separate effects. If we define flat frequency response as "better", then the imperfect turntable and imperfect speakers are, in fact, synergistic. That the net result isn't better than using two components with flat FR would be, is immaterial to the semantic debate.

All that said, I agree with the (implied) premise that relying on component synergy (or compensation) to achieve flat frequency response is an inferior strategy to buying components that measure flat individually, as a practical matter.
 

Galliardist

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Rules for "synergy" that I picked up over time (decades!) from subjective journals:
  • The best components, judged by a a particular reviewer in a particular price bracket, will never work as well together as when one of the components is of lesser quality
  • No two components from the same company can ever work well together or have synergy
  • No digital source ever has synergy with an amplifier. Only analogue components can have synergy.
  • No more than two components in any system can have synergy
  • Two well measuring components, by standard measurements, can never have synergy. Ever.
  • No matter how much synergy you have between two components, a more expensive replacement for one of the components will still sound better
In other words, synergy as presented to us is just another form of magic: in reality, another meaningless term best avoided.
 

Ricardus

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Rules for "synergy" that I picked up over time (decades!) from subjective journals:
  • The best components, judged by a a particular reviewer in a particular price bracket, will never work as well together as when one of the components is of lesser quality
  • No two components from the same company can ever work well together or have synergy
  • No digital source ever has synergy with an amplifier. Only analogue components can have synergy.
  • No more than two components in any system can have synergy
  • Two well measuring components, by standard measurements, can never have synergy. Ever.
  • No matter how much synergy you have between two components, a more expensive replacement for one of the components will still sound better
In other words, synergy as presented to us is just another form of magic: in reality, another meaningless term best avoided.
Yes. THANK YOU. I was just about to make a similar post.

It's just another BS "audiophile" word that we should avoid.
 

MattHooper

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Rules for "synergy" that I picked up over time (decades!) from subjective journals:
  • The best components, judged by a a particular reviewer in a particular price bracket, will never work as well together as when one of the components is of lesser quality
  • No two components from the same company can ever work well together or have synergy
  • No digital source ever has synergy with an amplifier. Only analogue components can have synergy.
  • No more than two components in any system can have synergy
  • Two well measuring components, by standard measurements, can never have synergy. Ever.
  • No matter how much synergy you have between two components, a more expensive replacement for one of the components will still sound better
In other words, synergy as presented to us is just another form of magic: in reality, another meaningless term best avoided.
Yes. THANK YOU. I was just about to make a similar post.

It's just another BS "audiophile" word that we should avoid.

Well, yes you can make anything B.S. by picking the worst offenders or strawmanning an entire concept.

I mean, that's what other "subjectivist" forums do with ASR right?
 

MattHooper

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True

A better word for the situation where a set of gear with random characteristics when used together just happen to align with an individuals preference might be "serendipity"

Except "serendipity" tends to suggest randomness, in particular an "unplanned fortunate discovery."

I don't think that captures scenarios that result from planned "testing" - deliberate attempts of trial and error, sifting results toward and arriving at a desired goal.

I know, I know, ASR hates any words associated with audiophiles/the subjective press.

But sometimes the words can work just fine.
 

Newman

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I'd argue that the terms compensation and synergy both apply in the example above.

Synergy, by dictionary definition, simply means that the combined effect of two agents is "better" than their separate effects. If we define flat frequency response as "better", then the imperfect turntable and imperfect speakers are, in fact, synergistic. That the net result isn't better than using two components with flat FR would be, is immaterial to the semantic debate.

All that said, I agree with the (implied) premise that relying on component synergy (or compensation) to achieve flat frequency response is an inferior strategy to buying components that measure flat individually, as a practical matter.
Didn’t my definition of synergy, to which you are replying, say the opposite of your text in bold above?
 

mppix

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Don't go overboard on the search for the best possible SINAD. There is one very knowledgeable member here who says 72db for the electronics chain is enough for nearly everyone, and 78db for a few. Same goes for speaker preference scores. A little EQ goes a long way.
Are there any speakers doing 72db sinad?
I am usually happy if the speaker distortion is below 1% (40db) but I may be reading your post wrong.
 

Ron Texas

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Are there any speakers doing 72db sinad?
I am usually happy if the speaker distortion is below 1% (40db) but I may be reading your post wrong.
SINAD refers to electronics.
 

Galliardist

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Well, yes you can make anything B.S. by picking the worst offenders or strawmanning an entire concept.

I mean, that's what other "subjectivist" forums do with ASR right?
OK, I've thought about this, and I was wrong with one part of what I said.
The word "synergy" is not meaningless. Actually, the rest of my post showed that it is laden with meaning. And what's more, I suspect that not one of the writers I picked up those ideas from actually meant all of those things when I picked up each one of them.

Synergy in hifi is an "I'm an expert" word. You could say "I think these products work together well" and it captures the point. But it sounds much more expert to say "there's a synergy between them". You see? Now it's not an opinion but a fact. But because it's "expert speak" it puts the user of the word in a kind of more official or expert position just from saying it.

Here's a non-hi-fi example: the spread of the descriptors "male" and "female". So, previously, someone describing a crime on the TV news would say "I saw a man running down East Street after the gunshots". OK? But a police officer would now say, "A male was reported running north along East Street after the gunshots were heard". The use of the word "male" supposedly makes the report more official than saying man, for some reason. When I had to give a statement to police about something a few years ago, I had a long argument and insisted on changing where they wrote "female" in their taking down of my statement, to "woman" when it was read back to me. Apparently, "female" sounds better in court? Anyway, nowadays when you watch the news and someone gets a mic shoved in front of them, they now automatically say "male" or "female" though they would never do that in normal conversation.

Or, returning to hifi, let's take one of the most common descriptors, "warm". As far as I can tell, warm was first used as an informal term applied to radios and early electric gramophones, the opposite of "bright". It seems to just mean that low frequencies were present in the sound: later, it meant that low frequencies were emphasised. However, it had and has an emotionally positive feel to it (my feet are cold while I'm writing this, so of course it feels that way to me right now!).

So, reviewers used the term. But it didn't feel right to use imprecise language, so of course, people tried to give it a meaning, and you can find those lexicons and articles online now. So one definition of the term was that frequencies around 250Hz are emphasised. See what just happened? A warm sound isn't a positive thing any more. Now it's becoming a specific distortion. Now, for people like most of us at ASR, warm=distorted=bad when used that way. Warm also in that process gets a little of the "I'm an expert" meaning because it is now a technical term.

Yet newcomers to the field, as well as some of the subjective reviewers, don't see it that way. Warm is still a positive attribute. How do we know what is meant? It still carries the "I'm an expert" thing though.

We've had people arrive here claiming that the most treble-heavy speakers (B&W's recent output of course) have a lovely, warm sound, not like those cold steely KEF speakers. Confused? It appears that because the writer likes the sound, and warm is a positive description in the press - thus an "expert word" though divorced again from its specific meaning - the system they have must be warm!

This leads to posers, not clarity. About a decade ago now, I had an earnest young salesperson (male, see - I'm doing it myself here!) tell me that the disc player he wanted me to buy was first "warm", then "smooth". So was I right to reply that a component can't be both warm and smooth, or not?

The thing is, we have to make the words work. Some words aren't going to work, and some words carry too much or the wrong meaning now. I don't intend to strawman the idea that some components work together better than others, though I expect that to be explicable through measurement...
 

Dimitrov

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Rules for "synergy" that I picked up over time (decades!) from subjective journals:
  • The best components, judged by a a particular reviewer in a particular price bracket, will never work as well together as when one of the components is of lesser quality
  • No two components from the same company can ever work well together or have synergy
  • No digital source ever has synergy with an amplifier. Only analogue components can have synergy.
  • No more than two components in any system can have synergy
  • Two well measuring components, by standard measurements, can never have synergy. Ever.
  • No matter how much synergy you have between two components, a more expensive replacement for one of the components will still sound better
In other words, synergy as presented to us is just another form of magic: in reality, another meaningless term best avoided.
But this is what I'm talking about. I know you are trying to make a joke here but clearly people are experiencing this. It's real within their minds. I don't know if it's an emotional reaction or a psychological reaction to audio gear combinations, but I don't think it's magic.

Synergy is taking place for these folks.

It seems acceptable to some to believe a room and speakers can colour or affect the type of sound from a system, but seemingly not other devices earlier in the connected chain (amps, pre-amps, dacs etc etc). Once again this logically doesn't seem to be fully cohesive. Whether by design, or poor engineering, cost saving, whatever, all these things are in the path and surely can have an affect whether very obviously perceivable to everybody, or only to those with acute hearing.

Once again, we can all believe what we want to, and see the world the way we want to, but it makes way more sense to state ones ideas or claims on a specific topic without the (not so subtle) implication of your ideas somehow being of greater value than that of other commenters. Ultimately everything is subjective, we all have different ears, brains etc and things could be perceived differently at different times of the day, different moods, weather, on and on.....but ultimately with all these small variations we experience, we are intelligent beings that can create a full picture of what something is.

If we reduced everything to measurements and graphs and specifications then how could we ever say anything is real or tangible.
 

Newman

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Synergy is taking place for these folks.
The real question is whether it is taking place in response to attributes of the sound waves, or in response to the sighted listening effect, ie a response to non-sonic factors, ie not actually audible.

Nearly all the reported 'synergies' are from sighted listening and I bet would not survive a controlled listening test. Which would mean that reported synergies are imaginary (as far as being sonic is concerned).
It seems acceptable to some to believe a room and speakers can colour or affect the type of sound from a system, but seemingly not other devices earlier in the connected chain (amps, pre-amps, dacs etc etc). Once again this logically doesn't seem to be fully cohesive.
It is 100% fully cohesive if you take into account the thresholds of human hearing. I strongly suggest you do so.

cheers
 
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