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Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

krabapple

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Endlessly gathering it? Constant attention to graphs and measurements of gear most here will never even own?

I don't do either of those things. And ASR only seems endless, sometimes.


Spending lots of time with room treatments, or measuring rooms, using DSP, tweaking subwoofers...etc?


Some data collection inherently takes 'lots of time'. Having a goal is nice for keeping it from being endless.


All of it seems a "waste of time" or strange way to spend one's energy, to most people.

No less than someone adjusting his VTF on his cartridge or whatever.

Of course I don't think there is anything at all wrong with such an interest or activity. But the "things I'm not in to doing equals a waste of time/faffing around, even if others like it" is a pretty common attitude (unfortunately). Just pointing out such derision is of course a subjective and arbitrary call.

Having a goal is nice. I admire the guys on the other thread are who are trying to actually gather measurements of cartridge performance, instead of practicing the usual vinylphile mole-a-whackery.


The line that sparked your thoughts was the final one after all this, which was about synergy
to the extent that it is possible to mismatch the measurable input and output capabilities of components, sure*. There is nothing 'unknown' about that. Beyond maybe speakers versus power requirements, it's not likely to be encountered. If you routinely buy 'boutique' gear with weird design philosophies behind it , well, you're asking for it.

Beyond any of that, no, it's just audiophile mystical ideation.

Now I have a question for you: in what way does your query at all address what I wrote, which was about accepting that what you believe about what your heard, might be wrong?

My point in footnoting TTs 'n' tubes there was to acknowledge that that tech, unlike most modern digital/electronic tech, lends itself to quixotic so-called matching quests by its very nature.
 

Mart68

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Perhaps look up the definition of synergy Matt.
Keith
Matt's 'synergy' is the way someone knowledgeable might use it during a casual conversation about hi-fi

Audiophile meaning of synergy is something along the lines of 'Don't use bright sounding cables with a bright sounding amplifier.'
 

Gringoaudio1

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: SYNERGISM
broadly : combined action or operation
: a mutually advantageous conjunction or compatibility of distinct business participants or elements

Nothing magical here. Though the notion of ‘greater than the sum of parts’ seems to come up a lot in definitions I see online. That could be perceived as magic. The music of The Beatles could be seen as synergistic as nothing done by them as solo artists equalled anything done as a combined group. But again nothing magic here these are human beings.
 

MattHooper

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Perhaps look up the definition of synergy Matt.
Keith

You understand how language works, right?

Context.

If a mixer says "I'm going to add more 'sparkle' to the cymbals" it's a different context than if it's used for "sparks flying off something" or in terms of light, or creating images.
Same with tons of descriptors. This is why, if you actually seek to communicate or understand, you don't just say "but look at the dictionary definition" when a word can be used in various contexts, to describe different phenomenon.

Here's a list of the ways "synergy" is used, per Collins:


Understanding the use of the word, given it can be applied to countless phenomena in all sorts of domains, will entail looking at the context.

Generally speaking, in the audiophile world, "synergy" generally means when two or more components work harmoniously together to create the sound someone is seeking, vs other possible combinations that don't produce that harmony. This can also be taken as a sense of "a combination that is greater than the sum of it's parts" insofar as there may be alternative pairings for each unit, that won't reach that same potential. Basically, something like food pairings/cooking.

My earlier use of the term "synergy" between my tube amps and Thiel speakers reflects this usage.

To *you* on *your criteria* I'm sure you'd recommend a good solid state amp as more "compatible" with my Thiels, given they have a somewhat demanding load and
an old tube amp design like the CJ Premier 12s has high enough output impedance to possibly alter the intended frequency response of the speaker.

But that's not my goal.

As I mentioned, using my tube amps with the Thiels kept the essential traits I liked but ADDED other traits I wanted as well - traits that were not inherent to the speakers in of themselves (when paired with neutral amps). And in the same respect, it's possible my amps would not "work" or satisfy me with certain other speaker pairings. But the particular combination of the Thiels and my tube amps produced a beautiful combination of traits, elevating the performance over other pairings.*

This is an example of what I, and plenty of other audiophiles mean by "synergy." (And your use of "compatibility" does not necessarily capture this idea).

Again, communication is a two way street. Someone can always condemn themselves to not understanding how a word is used and therefore find it "meaningless." But why not try to understand, instead?








*(Please remember, this is a discussion about the meaning of a term. Debates about actual audibility are a separate debate. A particular fact doesn't have to be established as true in order to understand what anyone means by a term. If an audiophile is mistaken in thinking he hears "greater dynamics" with his new expensive AC cable, it doesn't mean the term "greater dynamics" has no meaning when applied to actual audible cases, so it's the meaning we are discussing).
 
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MattHooper

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: SYNERGISM
broadly : combined action or operation
: a mutually advantageous conjunction or compatibility of distinct business participants or elements

Nothing magical here. Though the notion of ‘greater than the sum of parts’ seems to come up a lot in definitions I see online. That could be perceived as magic. The music of The Beatles could be seen as synergistic as nothing done by them as solo artists equalled anything done as a combined group. But again nothing magic here these are human beings.

Even if someone is using synergy in the sense of "greater than the sum of the parts" that leaves open what one means by "greater." If confused, all you have to do is ask
the person using the term: What is made "greater" using this combination?

It could be in the context of cooking: a certain combination of ingredients that, each on their own, may not be special or compelling, but combined, produce a wonderful result.
(See: Pizza :) )

Of course, someone may have different tastes and have their own idea about what combination of ingrediants is "synergistic." But you can understand what someone MEANS when they use the term.
 

Purité Audio

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Matt's 'synergy' is the way someone knowledgeable might use it during a casual conversation about hi-fi

Audiophile meaning of synergy is something along the lines of 'Don't use bright sounding cables with a bright sounding amplifier.'
No one with any technical knowledge would use the word synergy, fit for purpose perhaps.
Keith
 

MattHooper

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Purité Audio

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I can quite believe there is a good deal of ‘selling’ to the client in pro audio, and thus BS would be the norm.
Keith
 

Killingbeans

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There is nothing inherent in the description "synergy" that denotes magic.

No, but if you look at the audio hobby as an isolated case, there's been put an awful lot of energy into infusing the term with magical undertones.

Synergistic Research didn't choose that name out of thin air. I personally feel that the term has been abused and contaminated enough to not making me want to touch it with a ten foot pole.

The most positive use of the word 'synergy' I can think of in home audio would be something equivalent to "I did something. I don't know what. But it seems to work."
 

MattHooper

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I can quite believe there is a good deal of ‘selling’ to the client in pro audio, and thus BS would be the norm.
Keith

:facepalm:

I'm afraid this strongly suggests you know not whereof you speak, on this subject.
 

Sal1950

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My point in footnoting TTs 'n' tubes there was to acknowledge that that tech, unlike most modern digital/electronic tech, lends itself to quixotic so-called matching quests by its very nature.
It has to. Designed in the dark days of audio engineering, you have to pay close attention to things like input/output impedances, capacitance and resistance loading, and all the rest to get any reasonably high level of sound quality performance. Thank goodness we've moved forward in the science of design.
 

MattHooper

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No, but if you look at the audio hobby as an isolated case, there's been put an awful lot of energy into infusing the term with magical undertones.

Synergistic Research didn't choose that name out of thin air. I personally feel that the term has been abused and contaminated enough to not making me want to touch it with a ten foot pole.

The most positive use of the word 'synergy' I can think of in home audio would be something equivalent to "I did something. I don't know what. But it seems to work."

I totally understand and respect that view.

If someone doesn't like a term for whatever reason that's cool (and I can see your reasons! Especially given *that* company!)

It's only when someone doesn't stop at "I prefer not to use that term, but X instead" but goes on to "That term Is Meaningless," that I find oversteps. It may be used
meaningfully by other people, in their context.
 

Newman

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Even if someone is using synergy in the sense of "greater than the sum of the parts" that leaves open what one means by "greater." If confused, all you have to do is ask
the person using the term: What is made "greater" using this combination?
I think the objectionable use of 'synergy' in audio is when the writer wishes to imply that this combination, and only this combination, produces a leap in perceived positives, when compared to other combinations that should sound very similar based on engineering considerations.

And the most likely place we are going to find that is in the subjective gear review. And it is probably just the sighted listening effect at work.

Here is an example (offsite link) talking about synergy between a DAC and a streamer.

Here is another offsite link: "synergy is key as always"...and it's the DAC that's going to bring it.

'Synergy' gets used too frequently in a way that, when you try substituting the word 'compatible' you realise they want to say or imply much more than 'compatible'.

cheers
 

MattHooper

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I think the objectionable use of 'synergy' in audio is when the writer wishes to imply that this combination, and only this combination, produces a leap in perceived positives, when compared to other combinations that should sound very similar based on engineering considerations.

And the most likely place we are going to find that is in the subjective gear review. And it is probably just the sighted listening effect at work.

Here is an example (offsite link) talking about synergy between a DAC and a streamer.

Here is another offsite link: "synergy is key as always"...and it's the DAC that's going to bring it.

'Synergy' gets used too frequently in a way that, when you try substituting the word 'compatible' you realise they want to say or imply much more than 'compatible'.

cheers

Yes I can see what you mean.
 

Galliardist

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I think the objectionable use of 'synergy' in audio is when the writer wishes to imply that this combination, and only this combination, produces a leap in perceived positives, when compared to other combinations that should sound very similar based on engineering considerations.

And the most likely place we are going to find that is in the subjective gear review. And it is probably just the sighted listening effect at work.

Here is an example (offsite link) talking about synergy between a DAC and a streamer.

Here is another offsite link: "synergy is key as always"...and it's the DAC that's going to bring it.

'Synergy' gets used too frequently in a way that, when you try substituting the word 'compatible' you realise they want to say or imply much more than 'compatible'.

cheers
Thanks. I think you've captured the essence of the subject. I'd still say that synergy is an "I'm an expert" word in this context, as in "I can hear the difference and I ascribe it to the sonic properties of the combination of the devices". It leaves no room for the comment to be a personal opinion.

In fact, strip the word of that authority context, and it loses its meaning to anyone who is aware of the sighted listening effect. Because, actually, we don't know if there is really a sonic property at play, or indeed some other property of the product - the way it looks, its name, whatever. But this is the way of what we call "audio subjectivism" here - it's not really subjectivism at all, it's bad objectivism. What is going on is always ascribed to a difference in sound. For those reviews to work as a new reader may take them, the effect has to be reliably transferred to the listener.

@MattHooper has left those possibilities open as he qualifies the description he uses. Which is much better subjectivism. But without the authority, what is the point of a journal?

Yet now, in one sense, the word has meaning - he hears this: but in another it is in fact meaningless after all, because I can't know or place the property he is describing. Does that, er, make sense?
 

Galliardist

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It has to. Designed in the dark days of audio engineering, you have to pay close attention to things like input/output impedances, capacitance and resistance loading, and all the rest to get any reasonably high level of sound quality performance. Thank goodness we've moved forward in the science of design.
Unfortunately, you do still have to pay attention to such things. Gain, particularly, comes up with matching a power amplifier to a DAC with volume control and also sometimes with pre-outs from integrated amps: impedance occasionally, as well. There are some DACs with very high unbalanced output: pair one of those with a pre-CD era vintage receiver and you'll know all about it.

Thankfully the cartridge interface, which was the worst place to get issues of this kind, does go away if you only use digital sources.
 

Galliardist

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Sal1950

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Unfortunately, you do still have to pay attention to such things. Gain, particularly, comes up with matching a power amplifier to a DAC with volume control and also sometimes with pre-outs from integrated amps: impedance occasionally, as well. There are some DACs with very high unbalanced output: pair one of those with a pre-CD era vintage receiver and you'll know all about it.
True but all very outlier situations.
95% of today's digital based systems are plug n play.
The last time I had to pay attention to such things was in the early 1990's when I
was choosing components to put together a passive preamp based front end.
(DAMN, was that really 30 years ago? :facepalm:)
 

MattHooper

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@MattHooper has left those possibilities open as he qualifies the description he uses. Which is much better subjectivism. But without the authority, what is the point of a journal?

Yet now, in one sense, the word has meaning - he hears this: but in another it is in fact meaningless after all, because I can't know or place the property he is describing. Does that, er, make sense?

This gets in to some interesting territory and I'm curious about your thoughts on the following.

I've tried to at least plant a flag in the ground, or a line, separating the question of a word being "meaningful" vs "accurate." Where "accurate" means in this case "reporting something true, not imagined.

So for instance one can have a meaningful concept that is never actually accurate or true, like: Unicorn.

There's an actual definition in dictionaries for "unicorn" and mostly we know what someone is referencing. But if anyone reported seeing a unicorn, we would presume they are imagining it. In the same way, we need to separate the question of whether someone can supply a coherent definition of "synergy" (what they mean by the word, as an audio term) from whether they are "imagining the effect" or not.

I think I provided a reasonable sketch as an example here:


But let's take your concern about the objective aspect of a claim. My claim was only anecdotal, but for the sake of argument, what if we could point to objective evidence.
Let's say we could point to measurements showing the tube amps are subtly/audibly altering the frequency response, rolling off a bit of highs at some point, some low Q rise in the warmth region, maybe less control over the woofers thickening the bass response, possibly some harmonic distortion sprinkled in there (again, for sake of argument).

What word will apply there and why?

It seems like it will depend on what one's goal is and/or what we are trying to get across.

I would think an ASR member inclined to keep to words like "compatible" is the type who would be disinclined to call that combination "compatible." That's because "compatible" to that person likely means an amplifier that would allow the speaker to produce the intended frequency response (and not introduce added distortion of it's own anywhere).

But that wouldn't account for someone else who likes or desires the result.

It seems to me the same person, when given these objective measurements, also wouldn't be inclined to use the term "synergy" either, for similar reasons. That is essentially a positive term, and it is not a positive combination for that person.

So, in that sense objective verification wouldn't necessarily establish the term as "useful" even to the "objectivist" seeking neutrality.

"Synergy" would, though, be a useful descriptor for someone who is seeking the sound produced by that combo (like me). And the reason "I" or anyone else might "like" it will necessarily be due to it's subjective effect. Which can be described in subjective language.

So what has been established is the fact there is a measurable/audible characteristics to the pairing. The usefulness of the term is still up for grabs.

And this is where communication comes in. You don't necessarily need to agree with or use the term "synergy" yourself to understand what someone is getting at.
If we go strictly from the measurements, I point to them and I say "I like this amp/speaker combo, I find the sonic character "synergistic" vs the speakers with a solid state amp, you could at least look at the measured effects and say "Oh, he likes a roll off here, a boost there, some distortion there, that's what he means by finding this pairing synergistic." But another way of understanding it is to understand the subjective descriptions OF those measurable effects - warmer, rich, more filled out, more body, smoother less sharp highs, thicker less tight bass tone, etc. And subjective-oriented audiophiles can "know what the other guy means by synergistic" and also communicate exactly "how" a pairing is synergistic by using subjective description. So...it's meaningful. The question can always remain if it's "accurate" or not. (And paradoxically enough, the people MOST inclined and able to find out if it's accurate, are the ones least inclined to understand or assign any meaning to the language).

Whew!
 

tmtomh

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My sense is you are reading a bit too much in to the use of the term "synergy."

You may be right about how some people use it. But far from all, IMO. It just seems a convenient term for when two or more components work well together, sonically.
Since we are talking about the audiophile world, the term may be used in the context of some error or delusion, but not necessarily with the level of pretension you have inferred.

I agree that synergy can be "a convenient term for when two or more components work well together, sonically." The difficulty I have with it is that most of the time this working-well-together quality is claimed based on nothing more than sighted listening comparisons, In other words, it's a version of, "I listened to this DAC and there's a sweetness to the upper-mid that's just a bit more involving than with the other DAC." The only difference with synergy is that such an observation adds something to the effect that the "sweeter" DAC sounds sweeter than the other DAC only when paired with the amp that it has synergy with.

I understand that this is not the same as a claim of magic. And I also understand that sometimes such synergy is posited as a result of technical differences - tube amps vs solid-state amps having or lacking synergy with certain speakers is the most common version of that. My problem is simply that most of the time I have no basis upon which to evaluate the likely truth-value of such synergy claims - and on the occasions when I do have a basis, when there are actual measurement differences or design differences that really could account for the perceived differences claimed, then the concept of synergy ceases to be useful to me.

By all means, use the term if you like - I'm not interesting in policing others' language. It's just that from my perspective, most such instances of the term are implausible, unbelievable, or otherwise not useful. And when it is useful, then the term synergy ceases to be necessary (IMHO of course).

Upon reflection, I think there are two types of product where this issue sort of comes into play in Amir's reviews here: headphone amps, and cheap Class D speaker amps with external power supplies.

With the former, Amir tests them with different headphones that are harder or easier to drive, or that are more or less sensitive and have higher and lower impedance. This helps us see which headphone amps can effectively drive which kinds of headphones. I guess you could call that synergy if you really wanted to, but no one ever does.

With the latter - the cheap Class D amps - we see all the time that there are different PSUs available for these amps, some with higher voltage ratings but others with higher amperage ratings. Depending upon the impedance load of the speakers you connect to them, a 32V 10A PSU might enable the amp to provide more, or less, power than a 48V 7A PSU. Again, I guess you could call that synergy, but no one ever does.

My conclusion is that synergy tends to not to get used when the reasons two pieces of gear will or won't work well together are well-understood. The term tends to get used more when the reasons are not well-understood, or when there is no investigation at all into the possible reasons and it's all about subjective sonic impressions.
 
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